Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker

lugerholsterrepair · 02-17-2002, 05:20 PM

Interesting Luger, any comments? Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 02-17-2002, 07:46 PM

Jerry. I have a Death Head and have seen a few others. These are always problematic to authenticate. At first blush, it looks OK from the photos. Looks like it is an Erfurt and with a 1918 date, it falls in the most commonly encountered DH. Other dates and DWMs are encountered less frequently. Condition is about average for most of the DH I have seen (pretty rough). It is interesting to note that it is double dated in a rather unconventional way in that the original date has been left intact with a slash and a very small 20 added slightly below and to the right of the original date. It is an interesting piece. Don't know what value to place on it (or any other DH for that matter). If anyone really wants a DH, it is probably worth a shot at around $1500, but probably the seller will want more than that. In any case, you would definately want to exercise the inspection and return option.

lugerholsterrepair · 02-17-2002, 09:50 PM

Ron, I know next to nothing about them except what I have read. Your one up on me having one. Quite a controversy about authenticity but there is no doubt about the death head in general, just about it's use on the German Luger. I thought it was interesting in that the guy has good photo's. Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 02-17-2002, 09:57 PM

I liked the photos too (put copies in my scrapbook). The fact that they are detailed enough to show the double-date speaks well of the quality.

Spencer · 02-18-2002, 12:36 PM

Could some one explain or give background on this "Death Head" I have seen it as a Nazi symbol but the 1918/1920 time frame is off, or is it?

Orv Reichert · 02-18-2002, 01:39 PM

Over the centuries, the skull or DH has been used by many units in many countries. Do not attribute it to just the Germans in the Nazi era.

Orv Reichert

Ron Wood · 02-18-2002, 02:37 PM

The Death Head has long been a symbol of honor in German heraldry. It signified honor unto death, a commitment to lifelong knightly honor, not "death before dishonor" as many have attributed to it. In Imperial Germany, the priviledge of wearing the DH was bestowed only to those units that displayed exemplary honor an valor in battle. The First and Second Leib (bodyguard) Hussars (Kaiser Wilhelms personal honor guard), the 17th Brunswick Hussars, and the Brunswick 3rd Battalion 92nd Infantry Regiment were the most notable. As time went on, other units incorporated the DH into their insignia, but without the imperial commission that earlier units had. The use of the DH on early Lugers is an enigma and has been attributed to the three units mentioned above, "Freikorps" units during the late Weimar era, flamethrower or "Flammenwerfer" units, tank units, sturmbattalions and a few others. It is the flamethrower connection that is currently considered the most favorable theory (see Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" and "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" volumes) The lazy S surmounting the skull it thought to be a stylized reprsentation of a flamethrower pattern.

Spencer · 02-18-2002, 07:31 PM

Thank you for the lesson! It is probably the most interesting Luger I have seen. I guess there is no documentation on how many were made? Would these have been imprinted at the factory when it was reworked in 1920? The DH only seems a partial imprint and the orientation is different from most other imprints, i.e. country contracts.

Ron Wood · 02-18-2002, 09:03 PM

Spencer: Not all DH Lugers are 1920 reworks. It would appear that some unit, still unknown, marked Lugers on hand with this unique mark. Dates on these pieces range reportedly from 1911 to 1918 (mine is 1913). I know of no undated example. There is no way of knowing how many were produced. There are probably less than 20 surviving examples (and probably an equal number of fakes). The mark is definately a die stamp and not engraved. Most likely it is what is known as a roll die since the depth of the die impression is uniform along the curvature of the chamber. Contract Lugers were factory produced, and as you have observed, the country crests were perpendicular to the bore axis rather than parallel like the DH. To have the capability to roll die stamp a weapon would require a fairly high level arsenal (what the US military refers to as "depot" maintenance). Sure wish there would be some concrete information come to light to explain the existance of these interesting Lugers.

Milt Keller · 02-19-2002, 01:10 AM

Ron,

Are these original or are they copies..., where did you get them?

I'm just starting to collect them.

Milt Keller

02-19-2002, 01:35 AM

Very NiCe! LooKs GrEaT!!

Ron Wood · 02-19-2002, 12:26 PM

They are original. The Brunswick I picked up at a gun show! It was a little worse for wear, but I have been restoring these things for a while and this one is coming along pretty well. The hussar busby is the result of about 9 years of accumulating all of the correct parts (this is one scarce puppy). I started with a really nice DH busby with a perfect red kopak. The front plate had been replaced with a bad repro but now I have an original one. The hardest part to find was the "Mit Gott fur Konig and Vaterland" bandeau over the skull. That has go to be one of the rarest chunks of metal around! I have found helmets at flea markets, antique funiture stores (no kidding!), and visiting at the homes of other gun collectors. They are like Lugers, they are where you find them. The most consistant source of helmets and parts is Manions International Auction House (manions.com), but the cost can be high. Also a guy in Canada has a neat website that I will look up the URL for you when I get home this evening. Good luck with your new hobby.

Ron Wood · 02-19-2002, 10:45 PM

Milt: The Canadian site is pickelhaubes.com Nice pictures and some good info.

Jim · 02-21-2002, 11:57 AM

I am considering purchase of a 1939 S/42 in the "O" block, E/63 and E/83 acceptance proofs. Pistol is in exc. shape, with two matching mags. My question is about one of the mags. One is E/63, correct Mauser number and letter markings, original (no "+"). The other is E/83, number and letter markings thinner (not mauser?) and also lacking the "+" spare mag stamp. I can accept the different acceptance proofs, as this is a transition piece bearing both on the receiver. I have trouble with the "spare" mag not matching the die stamp characteristics of the original. Is there any possibility of a legitimate matching (spare) mag with non-mauser die stamps and no "+" stamp??? Armouror's field issue or fake???

Thanks! JIm

Ron Wood · 02-21-2002, 02:51 PM

Jim: You probably should go back to the main index and post this question as a new message. The experts you would want to ask may not find your message at the bottom of this thread.

Jim · 02-21-2002, 03:12 PM

Thanks Ron, I wondered where it went!!

02-17-2002, 05:20 PM	#1
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,134 Times in 1,439 Posts	Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker Interesting Luger, any comments? Jerry Burney

02-17-2002, 07:46 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,121 Thanked 5,287 Times in 1,728 Posts	Re: Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker Jerry. I have a Death Head and have seen a few others. These are always problematic to authenticate. At first blush, it looks OK from the photos. Looks like it is an Erfurt and with a 1918 date, it falls in the most commonly encountered DH. Other dates and DWMs are encountered less frequently. Condition is about average for most of the DH I have seen (pretty rough). It is interesting to note that it is double dated in a rather unconventional way in that the original date has been left intact with a slash and a very small 20 added slightly below and to the right of the original date. It is an interesting piece. Don't know what value to place on it (or any other DH for that matter). If anyone really wants a DH, it is probably worth a shot at around $1500, but probably the seller will want more than that. In any case, you would definately want to exercise the inspection and return option.

02-17-2002, 09:57 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,121 Thanked 5,287 Times in 1,728 Posts	Re: Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker I liked the photos too (put copies in my scrapbook). The fact that they are detailed enough to show the double-date speaks well of the quality.

02-18-2002, 12:36 PM	#5
Spencer User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker Could some one explain or give background on this "Death Head" I have seen it as a Nazi symbol but the 1918/1920 time frame is off, or is it?

02-18-2002, 01:39 PM	#6
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Death Head Over the centuries, the skull or DH has been used by many units in many countries. Do not attribute it to just the Germans in the Nazi era. Orv Reichert

02-17-2002, 09:50 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,134 Times in 1,439 Posts	Re: Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker Ron, I know next to nothing about them except what I have read. Your one up on me having one. Quite a controversy about authenticity but there is no doubt about the death head in general, just about it's use on the German Luger. I thought it was interesting in that the guy has good photo's. Jerry Burney

02-18-2002, 02:37 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,121 Thanked 5,287 Times in 1,728 Posts	Re: Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker The Death Head has long been a symbol of honor in German heraldry. It signified honor unto death, a commitment to lifelong knightly honor, not "death before dishonor" as many have attributed to it. In Imperial Germany, the priviledge of wearing the DH was bestowed only to those units that displayed exemplary honor an valor in battle. The First and Second Leib (bodyguard) Hussars (Kaiser Wilhelms personal honor guard), the 17th Brunswick Hussars, and the Brunswick 3rd Battalion 92nd Infantry Regiment were the most notable. As time went on, other units incorporated the DH into their insignia, but without the imperial commission that earlier units had. The use of the DH on early Lugers is an enigma and has been attributed to the three units mentioned above, "Freikorps" units during the late Weimar era, flamethrower or "Flammenwerfer" units, tank units, sturmbattalions and a few others. It is the flamethrower connection that is currently considered the most favorable theory (see Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" and "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" volumes) The lazy S surmounting the skull it thought to be a stylized reprsentation of a flamethrower pattern.

02-18-2002, 02:48 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,121 Thanked 5,287 Times in 1,728 Posts	Re: Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker Lonnie

02-18-2002, 07:31 PM	#10
Spencer User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker Thank you for the lesson! It is probably the most interesting Luger I have seen. I guess there is no documentation on how many were made? Would these have been imprinted at the factory when it was reworked in 1920? The DH only seems a partial imprint and the orientation is different from most other imprints, i.e. country contracts.

02-18-2002, 09:03 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,121 Thanked 5,287 Times in 1,728 Posts	Re: Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker Spencer: Not all DH Lugers are 1920 reworks. It would appear that some unit, still unknown, marked Lugers on hand with this unique mark. Dates on these pieces range reportedly from 1911 to 1918 (mine is 1913). I know of no undated example. There is no way of knowing how many were produced. There are probably less than 20 surviving examples (and probably an equal number of fakes). The mark is definately a die stamp and not engraved. Most likely it is what is known as a roll die since the depth of the die impression is uniform along the curvature of the chamber. Contract Lugers were factory produced, and as you have observed, the country crests were perpendicular to the bore axis rather than parallel like the DH. To have the capability to roll die stamp a weapon would require a fairly high level arsenal (what the US military refers to as "depot" maintenance). Sure wish there would be some concrete information come to light to explain the existance of these interesting Lugers.

02-19-2002, 01:10 AM	#12
Milt Keller User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 191 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker Ron, Are these original or are they copies..., where did you get them? I'm just starting to collect them. Milt Keller

02-19-2002, 01:35 AM	#13
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Death Head Luger#3167779 gunbroker Very NiCe! LooKs GrEaT!!

02-19-2002, 12:26 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,121 Thanked 5,287 Times in 1,728 Posts	Re: Death Head Helmets They are original. The Brunswick I picked up at a gun show! It was a little worse for wear, but I have been restoring these things for a while and this one is coming along pretty well. The hussar busby is the result of about 9 years of accumulating all of the correct parts (this is one scarce puppy). I started with a really nice DH busby with a perfect red kopak. The front plate had been replaced with a bad repro but now I have an original one. The hardest part to find was the "Mit Gott fur Konig and Vaterland" bandeau over the skull. That has go to be one of the rarest chunks of metal around! I have found helmets at flea markets, antique funiture stores (no kidding!), and visiting at the homes of other gun collectors. They are like Lugers, they are where you find them. The most consistant source of helmets and parts is Manions International Auction House (manions.com), but the cost can be high. Also a guy in Canada has a neat website that I will look up the URL for you when I get home this evening. Good luck with your new hobby.

02-19-2002, 10:45 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,121 Thanked 5,287 Times in 1,728 Posts	Re: Death Head Helmets Milt: The Canadian site is pickelhaubes.com Nice pictures and some good info.

02-21-2002, 11:57 AM	#16
Jim User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 39 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mag question for the experts I am considering purchase of a 1939 S/42 in the "O" block, E/63 and E/83 acceptance proofs. Pistol is in exc. shape, with two matching mags. My question is about one of the mags. One is E/63, correct Mauser number and letter markings, original (no "+"). The other is E/83, number and letter markings thinner (not mauser?) and also lacking the "+" spare mag stamp. I can accept the different acceptance proofs, as this is a transition piece bearing both on the receiver. I have trouble with the "spare" mag not matching the die stamp characteristics of the original. Is there any possibility of a legitimate matching (spare) mag with non-mauser die stamps and no "+" stamp??? Armouror's field issue or fake??? Thanks! JIm

02-21-2002, 02:51 PM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,121 Thanked 5,287 Times in 1,728 Posts	Re: Mag question for the experts Jim: You probably should go back to the main index and post this question as a new message. The experts you would want to ask may not find your message at the bottom of this thread.

02-21-2002, 03:12 PM	#18
Jim User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 39 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Mag question for the experts Thanks Ron, I wondered where it went!!