WW1 Luger found on Somme battlefields on Saturday - Page 2

A.Mifsin · 03-02-2010, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suum cuique

You could put in a pencil til the breech block = approx. 10,2cm.
If it's loaded just 7,4cm.
10,2 cm
- 0,19cm
= 7,3 cm

(a regular nowaday FMJ 9mm luger cartridge is 19mm long, WW1 ammo was slightly shorter)

Am I correct that .19cm is the case, so you have to add the bullet, which give and take is .30cm. overall.

Alf

Douglas Jr. · 03-02-2010, 01:48 PM

Very interesting topic! Please keep us informed about your progress.

Good luck,
Douglas

Douglas Jr. · 03-02-2010, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macadoon

Hi, can anyone provide this thread with certain photographs of a ww1 luger, probably 1915-16 vintage. I found this one on a 1916 battlefield.

There were two producers of P.08 pistols at that time: DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Munitionfabriken) and Erfurt (Königlich Preussische Gewehrfabrik Erfurt)
Here are some examples:

DWM 1915: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...6a71fdc1bd4cde

DWM 1916: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...6a71fdc1bd4cde

ERFURT 1916: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...6a71fdc1bd4cde

As you can notice (and according to Vlim's observation), they all look the same concerning its major features: 100mm barrel, fixed sights, caliber 9mm Luger.

Douglas.

Macadoon · 03-02-2010, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Interested in how it was found. I bet millions of people have visited the site, and most won't find guns on ground surface waiting picking up. Found in a trench? in river? under ground?

I would suggest leave it as is without removing the dirt and rust. Since it's battlefield pick up, this is the best fitting.

I found the luger in a paddock that had been recently ploughed, partially under a clod of earth. It had been raining heavily, so metal objects were relatively easy to spot. Only part of the handle was visible. In fact, truth be told, I thought it was a commonly found piece of shrapnel, and I walked past it. Something ... I don't know what ... made me think twice and revisit the spot for a closer look. Hey presto!
I want to emphasise the point that I did not, and do not condone, digging for such things. Nor do I metal detect, which is illegal on the battlefields of France.
Macadoon

Macadoon · 03-02-2010, 04:00 PM

For me the key thing is to see whether the ejector is sitting proud or not and whether there is a bullet in the chamber. Secondly, I want to know how many, if any, bullets are in the chamber. If there are any, I plan to have them removed.
I originally suspected the luger was fully loaded, but as I learn more about this type of gun from this forum, the more I think this may not be the case.
Of course, it is early days as yet, and I very much regard the luger as fully loaded until proven otherwise. That in mind, I have left it for safe keeping with an appropriately qualified person rather than break any laws or take any undue risks. Safety, caution, legality are my rules.
Actually, there appears to be quite a bit of metal, as opposed to rust, still left in the frame. The photo doesn't show it, but a pin test revealed the uminstakable shine of metal under some dirt.
Macadoon

alanint · 03-02-2010, 07:14 PM

There will be only one bullet in the chamber, as the chamber only will hold a single round. There may be more in the magazine, which is inside the frame. I would not worry too much of the safety of rounds found in the magazine. More dangerous, perhaps, would be to try to remove them than to let them be where they currently are.

alvin · 03-02-2010, 07:50 PM

One of my grandma's story was that a neighbor found a bottle-like object full of rust and mud in a pond (grenade), and the peasant did not recognize this thing and throwed it into kitchen stove... it indeed exploded and damaged the house. I forgot he's killed or not in the story. That's in 1940s.

alanint · 03-02-2010, 10:22 PM

What would posses anybody to throw an unknown object into a kitchen stove??

John Sabato · 03-02-2010, 11:46 PM

Another method of removing the dirt not previously discussed would be high pressure water such as a car wash or pressure washer used for cleaning the exterior of houses or car engines... It should not cause any damage whatsoever, removing only dirt. High pressure water directed into the barrel would also eat through any accumulation of dirt and expose whether or not there is a cartridge in the chamber. Let us know how you proceed and which method works for you.

alvin · 03-03-2010, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

What would posses anybody to throw an unknown object into a kitchen stove??

That behavior was unexplainable. I had the same question. There were a few possibilities and let's put this guy being totally insane aside.... he might try to 'bake' this wet object dry? or he thought this might be an eatable? Hard to guess....

Steinar · 03-03-2010, 06:49 AM

..perhaps to hide it? Some stoves back then was on all the time. Just a though..

Another silly thing to do with a couple of grenades, is to use them as weight for a grandfather clock. But that's a story that doesn't end with a boom, just a really bad idea from one of my relatives.

Perhaps this Luger is a job for Kroil and compressed air. There are many roads to Rome

alanint · 03-03-2010, 09:07 AM

True on the average person's unfamiliarity with ordnance.

I frequented a hotel in France for many years, which used an old artillery shell to prop open the front outer door. I never really gave it a second thought as into the 1970's the presence of WW2 objects was not that uncommon in Europe.
One year I visited and it was gone. When I inquired at the front desk, they told me someone realized the shell was a live HE and had it removed!!

LugerVern · 03-03-2010, 09:28 AM

I think I would have it x-rayed, before doing anything to it. You would then know exactly what you’re dealing with.

Properly done you might also discover who produced it.

Does the gun have a slot for attaching a shoulder stock?

Just a thought

Vern

suum cuique · 03-03-2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Mifsin

Am I correct that .19cm is the case, so you have to add the bullet, which give and take is .30cm. overall.

Alf

Yes of course, you are totally right! What was I thinking at the moment

Just the case is .19mm, sorry.

Macadoon · 03-04-2010, 04:54 PM

Looking at post number 5 in this thread, would anyone hazard a guess on whether the extractor of this pistol is sitting proud, or not, indicating that it is loaded, or not? I'm not sure how high this piece of metal sits with the word 'geladen' on it when a pistol is loaded.
Macadoon

alanint · 03-04-2010, 05:30 PM

Not very high. It would be difficult to say with all the debris covering the bolt. One thing you may check, however, when unloaded, the extractor sits flush, or at the same level as the bolt. If you detects ANY rise in this area, then there is likely something in the chamber

03-02-2010, 11:46 PM	#29
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Another method of removing the dirt not previously discussed would be high pressure water such as a car wash or pressure washer used for cleaning the exterior of houses or car engines... It should not cause any damage whatsoever, removing only dirt. High pressure water directed into the barrel would also eat through any accumulation of dirt and expose whether or not there is a cartridge in the chamber. Let us know how you proceed and which method works for you. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-03-2010, 06:49 AM	#31
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	..perhaps to hide it? Some stoves back then was on all the time. Just a though.. Another silly thing to do with a couple of grenades, is to use them as weight for a grandfather clock. But that's a story that doesn't end with a boom, just a really bad idea from one of my relatives. Perhaps this Luger is a job for Kroil and compressed air. There are many roads to Rome __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

03-02-2010, 01:48 PM	#22
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Very interesting topic! Please keep us informed about your progress. Good luck, Douglas

03-02-2010, 04:00 PM	#25
Macadoon User Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	For me the key thing is to see whether the ejector is sitting proud or not and whether there is a bullet in the chamber. Secondly, I want to know how many, if any, bullets are in the chamber. If there are any, I plan to have them removed. I originally suspected the luger was fully loaded, but as I learn more about this type of gun from this forum, the more I think this may not be the case. Of course, it is early days as yet, and I very much regard the luger as fully loaded until proven otherwise. That in mind, I have left it for safe keeping with an appropriately qualified person rather than break any laws or take any undue risks. Safety, caution, legality are my rules. Actually, there appears to be quite a bit of metal, as opposed to rust, still left in the frame. The photo doesn't show it, but a pin test revealed the uminstakable shine of metal under some dirt. Macadoon

03-02-2010, 07:14 PM	#26
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	There will be only one bullet in the chamber, as the chamber only will hold a single round. There may be more in the magazine, which is inside the frame. I would not worry too much of the safety of rounds found in the magazine. More dangerous, perhaps, would be to try to remove them than to let them be where they currently are.

03-02-2010, 07:50 PM	#27
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	One of my grandma's story was that a neighbor found a bottle-like object full of rust and mud in a pond (grenade), and the peasant did not recognize this thing and throwed it into kitchen stove... it indeed exploded and damaged the house. I forgot he's killed or not in the story. That's in 1940s.

03-02-2010, 10:22 PM	#28
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	What would posses anybody to throw an unknown object into a kitchen stove??

03-03-2010, 09:07 AM	#32
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	True on the average person's unfamiliarity with ordnance. I frequented a hotel in France for many years, which used an old artillery shell to prop open the front outer door. I never really gave it a second thought as into the 1970's the presence of WW2 objects was not that uncommon in Europe. One year I visited and it was gone. When I inquired at the front desk, they told me someone realized the shell was a live HE and had it removed!!

03-03-2010, 09:28 AM	#33
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	I think I would have it x-rayed, before doing anything to it. You would then know exactly what you’re dealing with. Properly done you might also discover who produced it. Does the gun have a slot for attaching a shoulder stock? Just a thought Vern

03-04-2010, 04:54 PM	#35
Macadoon User Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looking at post number 5 in this thread, would anyone hazard a guess on whether the extractor of this pistol is sitting proud, or not, indicating that it is loaded, or not? I'm not sure how high this piece of metal sits with the word 'geladen' on it when a pistol is loaded. Macadoon

03-04-2010, 05:30 PM	#36
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Not very high. It would be difficult to say with all the debris covering the bolt. One thing you may check, however, when unloaded, the extractor sits flush, or at the same level as the bolt. If you detects ANY rise in this area, then there is likely something in the chamber