WW1 Luger found on Somme battlefields on Saturday

[Macadoon]

Hi all,
This is my first post, so please excuse my lack of Luger knowledge as I am not a firearms collector but have some interest as this area is directly allied to my main interest of military history. I found this Luger on the WW1 battlefield of the Somme, and it remains in France, and I am trying to find out more information about it, including:

1. How is the best way to clean it up with a view to finding markings etc?
2. Can it be deactivated and by whom (I will not attempt it AT ALL)?
3. Is it possible to have a bullet in the chamber as well as a full mag?
4. All the grime on the piece noted, is it possible to tell what the manufacturer is from these photos?

basically, I am fascinated by this luger pistol, so any information you can offer is welcome.
Best
Macadoon

[Vlim]

Hi,

Yes it is possible to have a round in the chamber and a full magazine, although that wasn't standard practice. With a full magazine inserted, you'll find a total of 8 round, one of which can be located in the chamber, giving you 7 in the magazine.

Although it's safe to say that this pistols firing capabilities are a thing of the past, it is good to observe some caution. The rounds themselves have brass cases and survive in the ground pretty well. The bullet jackets are usually copper washed steel, so expect those to be severely corroded.

I would suggest removing the loose dirt first, then soaking it in a bath of solvents for some time, removing dirt as it works free of the gun. A brass wire brush and some gentle brushing can work miracles.

[Macadoon]

Someone has sent me this information:

'When in normal condition, if there is a round in the chamber with the toggle forward, the extractor sticks up above the level of the bolt to expose the word "Geladen", meaning loaded.'

Is this correct, and can anyone tell if the above luger is loaded according to this info and the above photos?

Any tips on cleaning are more than welcome by the way!

Macadoon

[Vlim]

Yes, that is correct. But after a few years underground there is a good chance that the extractor has rotted away.

Treat a gun as loaded until you can prove it is unloaded.

[Macadoon]

Hi... I have added a better side profile shot in the hope that it might yield info on whether the gun is loaded or not.
As on safety ... I am cautious beyond belief. I am making heaps of queries even before considering cleaning, and will not mess around with amunition. That is best left to qualified people.
Macadoon

[Vlim]

Hi, the extractor, which doubles as a loaded chamber indicater is located at the top of the toggle, right after the chamber. You could start cleaning that part first, in order to determine whether the extractor is still there and in what condition it is.

If the extractor is missing (or so badly deteriorated that it will break apart), it will allow you to see part of the cartridge rim if it is in the chamber.

If the barrel is free of obstructions (or cleaned out as much as it can be), you can insert a rod into the barrel and chamber and use that to measure the total distance from the muzzle to the toggle. If there is no round in the chamber, it should be evident by the distance measured.

Note that on this example the extractor was broken in two pieces. I also checked whether a loaded round was in the chamber by using the rod approach. In this particular case there were only the remains of a fired steel case in the chamber. The gun is long gone, I still have the case

[suum cuique]

Thor, can you fix it?

[Dwight Gruber]

Andrew,

This is a very interesting topic. Please continue to let us know how you progress, with continued excellent pictures--it will be a very good learning experience for all.

--Dwight

[Macadoon]

If the gun was loaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the tip of the bullet?
Converseley, if the gun was unloaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the back of the unloaded chamber?
Thanks
Macadoon

[Macadoon]

Hi, can anyone provide this thread with certain photographs of a ww1 luger, probably 1915-16 vintage. I found this one on a 1916 battlefield.
In particular, it would be useful to see the left and right sides of the handle, with the wooden hand plates removed?
I would then know exactly what it is I can see, grime etc on my example noted.
I think that is the magazine that can be seen in the handle in the top photo, and that the slide path can be seen (terminology is a bit off).
I've searched the net, but most of the photos it has appear to be of different models and then only from one side, or with the hand grips still on.
Any help greatly appreciated.
For those experts out there... what do these photos tell you about this luger? Any info is useful as you'll be writing for a complete novice who has caught the bug.
Macadoon

[Vlim]

Hi,

All military P08's are basically the same. Details only differ when it comes to finish (not an issue here) and markings. All small parts, springs and the general layout of the gun are identical. It is virtually impossible to make any decent statements about origin, etc... without a couple of cleaning sessions.

You are correct that the metal tube visible through the grip openings is the magazine. It is still inserted into the pistol. The area behind the magazine houses the main spring (coil spring type).

[newluger]

I have found that soaking in automatic transmission fluid works wonders. It probably will not remove everything, but it will help. Please be careful, as Vlim mentioned, consider it as a loaded pistol.

Newluger

[suum cuique]

Originally Posted by Macadoon

If the gun was loaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the tip of the bullet?
Converseley, if the gun was unloaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the back of the unloaded chamber?
Thanks
Macadoon

You could put in a pencil til the breech block = approx. 10,2cm.
If it's loaded just 7,4cm.
10,2 cm
- 3,00cm
= 7,2cm

(a regular nowaday FMJ 9mm luger cartridge is 30 mm long, WW1 ammo was slightly shorter)

[DavidJayUden]

"I have found that soaking in automatic transmission fluid works wonders. It probably will not remove everything, but it will help. "
FYI a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone is suppose to be one of the best penetrants going.
dju

[Conny]

.....Thor, can you fix it?......

Now that is funny.

[tomaustin]

you kept the shell casing? why not the luger? it must have had a terrific story to tell........tom

[Vlim]

Long story, local laws

[alvin]

Originally Posted by Macadoon

I found this one on a 1916 battlefield.

Interested in how it was found. I bet millions of people have visited the site, and most won't find guns on ground surface waiting picking up. Found in a trench? in river? under ground?

I would suggest leave it as is without removing the dirt and rust. Since it's battlefield pick up, this is the best fitting.

[John Sabato]

I would use the 50/50 ATF and acetone to soak and use with a stiff plastic bristle brush to clean it as much as possible. Soak a day at a time, then use the brush in the solution, and repeat until the gun is as clean as it will get.

Once the dirt has been removed, you could try removing some quantity of rust using the electrolosis method, but check it frequently because the gun is mostly rust now.

Neither of these methods should pose any danger to you... even if there is a cartridge in the chamber.

I doubt you will successfully dismantle this gun without destroying what is left... so once it has all the dirt off of it, I would mount it on a plaque with an inscription of where it was found with your name and date.

Please do elaborate on how the gun was found after all this time... metal-detector?

Welcome to the Lugerforum and thanks for sharing your historical find.

[suum cuique]

Originally Posted by Vlim

Long story, local laws

You are right, not worth getting a fine of several $K or doing time for this find.