ATF Inspection - Page 2

lew1 · 09-15-2009, 09:05 PM

50 guns in 36 months could be a high number on a C&R license.

A loose leaf notebook type of "bound book" is ok as I hav used such for almost 30 years in connection with an 01 license and a C&R license. I had two compaince exams in the last 3 years on the 01 license and no comment was made about my loose leaf notebook type of "bound book".

Mauser720 · 09-16-2009, 08:53 AM

Here is a true story I thought I should share with you:

In a small town a hardware store was combined with a convenience store and gas station. The hardware store also sold guns.

In addition to the owner, there was a lady about 70 to 75 years old who worked in the hardware store. I'll call her Betty and the owner Bob. (Not their real names.)

One day two jovial fellows came into the hardware store. One jokingly remarked that he probably should not even be in the hardware store since he had been convicted of a domestic violence crime, and was therefore not even allowed to buy a gun. I'll call him Jack. (Not his real name.) But his partner apparently did not have any legal problems with gun ownership, and he was interested in all kinds of guns. I'll call him Jim, and of course this is not his real name either. This pair becames friends with Betty, and she always showed them any gun they wanted to see in the counter, etc.

After a few weeks, Jim began buying and/or ordering guns and Betty always did the proper background checks, got all the forms filled out, etc. Jim always paid for his guns in cash. After many months of this, one day Jim and Jack came in to pick up a gun that Jim had ordered. And Jim discovered that he was $10.00 short in what he needed to pay for the gun. So he looked over at his good buddy Jack and asked him if he could loan him $10.00 until he could pay him back. Jack jokingly complied, pulled a $10 bill out of his wallet and gave it to Jim so he could pay for his gun.

This happened several other times over about a year, and Betty thought nothing of it.

However, one day the Bureau of ATF & Explosives raided the store and took Betty and the owner Bob both away in handcuffs.

Why?

Because Betty's two "friends" were actually ATF agents, and in allowing Jack to give Jim $10.00 so he could pay for his legally acquired handgun, she had actually witnessed a "strawman purchase." A "stawman purchase" exists when one person gives another person the money to buy a gun. Sound ridiculous?

Well, it did not sound ridiculous to the anti-gun judge who heard the case. He gave Betty one year in federal prison, and he gave Bob a year and a day in prison since he was the owner of the place.

So they both went to prison, even though the required background criminal checks had been completed, even though all the forms had been filled out, and even though their records were in order. Betty had been duped into allowing a strawman purchase by the two ATF agents.

Bob lost everything. The hardware store, convenience store and the gas station all had to be closed. Betty went into a depression, and when she was released from prison sold her house and left the state.

I know both of these people personally. While Bob was in prison, I wrote letters to him just to help him through the ordeal. In one of his letters to me, he wrote: "I can't believe this is happening to me in America."

Mauser720 - Ron

Ron Smith · 09-16-2009, 09:31 AM

There was a time , early 80s to late 90s, that the ATF was bordering on Gestapo tactics, some close to entrapment.

In the late 80s a local shop owner was routed out of bed at 4 am by a phone call from ATF Agents and ordered to open his shop for inspection. They literally up-ended his storeroom and office. After they had finished. They told him that they were acting on a tip from one of his customers that he was dealing drugs out of his shop.

The customer in question was a locally well know paranoid "Fringer" who was pissed off because the owner hadn't given him a bigger discount on a bulk ammo order. Fortunately he has since moved on to a "much warmer" localle. Much to the relief of his neighbors and the community.

They have since changed their tactics and methods. Most everyone that I know of, who has dealt with them recently, said they were very pleasant and at times, forgiving of minor infractions.

worldoftone · 09-16-2009, 11:38 AM

Glad to hear the inspection went well. Often wondered about how those were carried out.

- WOT

John Sabato · 09-16-2009, 12:45 PM

Great news Hugh! I knew you had your stuff together... Minta told me so!

abukafura · 09-16-2009, 01:08 PM

Anybody remember "Ruby Ridge" some years back?

Aaron · 09-16-2009, 01:27 PM

John, maybe you could hold back on a gun purchase and spring for a GPS?

John Sabato · 09-17-2009, 01:08 PM

Aaron, I HAD a GPS with me, unfortunately, Hugh's house has NO ADDRESS to input... his snail mail goes to a PO BOX! The GPS only got me as far as DEVERS...

If you didn't know that Hugh's place was at the end of the road, you would never believe that you had the correct driveway... If any of you ever go there, make sure you take a flare gun, a flashlight, suvival food, and a large caliber handgun to protect yourself if you break down half way to his place... A satellite phone might also be a good idea... my cell phone had only half a bar of signal while I was at their house.

Hessian · 10-22-2009, 04:03 AM

Where in the reg's does it say "what information must be recorded" for a C&R Lic. entry?

Thanks.

Hugh · 10-25-2009, 08:44 AM

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1...troduction.pdf

Sec. 478.125

SteveM · 10-25-2009, 09:28 AM

50/36=1.38 per month, that some kind of track record for buying/selling. This is another reason of why I gave up my C&R. I had it for 10+years and finally came to the conclusion it was none of their business how many I acquired/disposed of. I now use a dealer for anything through the mail for $15 per transfer. Well worth it to me for someone else to have the headache of inspections.

These inspections are,as Forrest Gump would say, like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.

09-15-2009, 09:05 PM	#21
lew1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 82 Thanked 204 Times in 112 Posts	50 guns in 36 months could be a high number on a C&R license. A loose leaf notebook type of "bound book" is ok as I hav used such for almost 30 years in connection with an 01 license and a C&R license. I had two compaince exams in the last 3 years on the 01 license and no comment was made about my loose leaf notebook type of "bound book". __________________ charlie

09-16-2009, 09:31 AM	#23
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	There was a time , early 80s to late 90s, that the ATF was bordering on Gestapo tactics, some close to entrapment. In the late 80s a local shop owner was routed out of bed at 4 am by a phone call from ATF Agents and ordered to open his shop for inspection. They literally up-ended his storeroom and office. After they had finished. They told him that they were acting on a tip from one of his customers that he was dealing drugs out of his shop. The customer in question was a locally well know paranoid "Fringer" who was pissed off because the owner hadn't given him a bigger discount on a bulk ammo order. Fortunately he has since moved on to a "much warmer" localle. Much to the relief of his neighbors and the community. They have since changed their tactics and methods. Most everyone that I know of, who has dealt with them recently, said they were very pleasant and at times, forgiving of minor infractions. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-16-2009, 12:45 PM	#25
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Great news Hugh! I knew you had your stuff together... Minta told me so! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-17-2009, 01:08 PM	#28
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Aaron, I HAD a GPS with me, unfortunately, Hugh's house has NO ADDRESS to input... his snail mail goes to a PO BOX! The GPS only got me as far as DEVERS... If you didn't know that Hugh's place was at the end of the road, you would never believe that you had the correct driveway... If any of you ever go there, make sure you take a flare gun, a flashlight, suvival food, and a large caliber handgun to protect yourself if you break down half way to his place... A satellite phone might also be a good idea... my cell phone had only half a bar of signal while I was at their house. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-22-2009, 04:03 AM	#29
Hessian User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	? Where in the reg's does it say "what information must be recorded" for a C&R Lic. entry? Thanks.

09-16-2009, 08:53 AM	#22
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Here is a true story I thought I should share with you: In a small town a hardware store was combined with a convenience store and gas station. The hardware store also sold guns. In addition to the owner, there was a lady about 70 to 75 years old who worked in the hardware store. I'll call her Betty and the owner Bob. (Not their real names.) One day two jovial fellows came into the hardware store. One jokingly remarked that he probably should not even be in the hardware store since he had been convicted of a domestic violence crime, and was therefore not even allowed to buy a gun. I'll call him Jack. (Not his real name.) But his partner apparently did not have any legal problems with gun ownership, and he was interested in all kinds of guns. I'll call him Jim, and of course this is not his real name either. This pair becames friends with Betty, and she always showed them any gun they wanted to see in the counter, etc. After a few weeks, Jim began buying and/or ordering guns and Betty always did the proper background checks, got all the forms filled out, etc. Jim always paid for his guns in cash. After many months of this, one day Jim and Jack came in to pick up a gun that Jim had ordered. And Jim discovered that he was $10.00 short in what he needed to pay for the gun. So he looked over at his good buddy Jack and asked him if he could loan him $10.00 until he could pay him back. Jack jokingly complied, pulled a $10 bill out of his wallet and gave it to Jim so he could pay for his gun. This happened several other times over about a year, and Betty thought nothing of it. However, one day the Bureau of ATF & Explosives raided the store and took Betty and the owner Bob both away in handcuffs. Why? Because Betty's two "friends" were actually ATF agents, and in allowing Jack to give Jim $10.00 so he could pay for his legally acquired handgun, she had actually witnessed a "strawman purchase." A "stawman purchase" exists when one person gives another person the money to buy a gun. Sound ridiculous? Well, it did not sound ridiculous to the anti-gun judge who heard the case. He gave Betty one year in federal prison, and he gave Bob a year and a day in prison since he was the owner of the place. So they both went to prison, even though the required background criminal checks had been completed, even though all the forms had been filled out, and even though their records were in order. Betty had been duped into allowing a strawman purchase by the two ATF agents. Bob lost everything. The hardware store, convenience store and the gas station all had to be closed. Betty went into a depression, and when she was released from prison sold her house and left the state. I know both of these people personally. While Bob was in prison, I wrote letters to him just to help him through the ordeal. In one of his letters to me, he wrote: "I can't believe this is happening to me in America." Mauser720 - Ron

09-16-2009, 11:38 AM	#24
worldoftone User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 81 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Glad to hear the inspection went well. Often wondered about how those were carried out. - WOT

09-16-2009, 01:08 PM	#26
abukafura Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Northeast Wisconsin, near Greeen Bay Posts: 327 Thanks: 1,314 Thanked 90 Times in 57 Posts	Anybody remember "Ruby Ridge" some years back?

09-16-2009, 01:27 PM	#27
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	John, maybe you could hold back on a gun purchase and spring for a GPS?

10-25-2009, 08:44 AM	#30
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1...troduction.pdf Sec. 478.125 __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

10-25-2009, 09:28 AM	#31
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	50/36=1.38 per month, that some kind of track record for buying/selling. This is another reason of why I gave up my C&R. I had it for 10+years and finally came to the conclusion it was none of their business how many I acquired/disposed of. I now use a dealer for anything through the mail for $15 per transfer. Well worth it to me for someone else to have the headache of inspections. These inspections are,as Forrest Gump would say, like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.