C 96 Help

Fazer · 10-18-2009, 03:39 AM

A while back I had some C 96 seized by Australian customs. They had a safety issue with them. Anyway thanks to the help I received here, Thanks Alvin, I now have the pistols. They have their original bits back in and all is well. It took a while but the main thing is I have them.

I am now trying to place one of them. It is 9mm Sn39341. It has non 9 marked grips. It has late type extractor, 2 lug firing pin, new safety. All numbers match. The SN is on left diagonal flat with German proof under neith, The top has the full Oberndorf markings as well on the right rear of frame.

The right side opposet the German proof is a crown over something.A T or vase or something, it's clear, I just can't figure out what it's supposed to be.

On the underside of the barrel, just forward of the frame is a M and a 6 pointed star. Just behind them is crown over RC, a crown over K, and in lager stamping 6SY.

Can any sence be made of these markings. I am guessing I have a 9mm military ciontract due to the low SN number and the later refinements.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks again for all your help...........Chip

alvin · 10-18-2009, 08:47 AM

Great and you're welcome!

The description of 9m/m sounds correct to me. The mark on right side of chamber is supposed to be C/J, so called Imperial Acceptance Stamp.

The marks under the barrel are still myth. The stamps on yours are typical, but I don't know the exact meaning of them.

C/RC is not typical, but it appears on some Lugers and is well addressed there. I assume this C/RC has the same meaning.

M over Star. Actually, they are two marks. M is M and Star is Star. M is probably Mauser's barrel acceptance stamp. M is on many prewar and postwar Mausers, not 9m/m specific. Star is unclear. But it's supposed to be there. I once acquired a fancy 9m/m rig in sn 8xxxx, which looks great except a few issues. Missing M and Star is one of those issues. I believed it's a Weimar rework and seller was kind enough to allow me to return it.

6, S, Y, etc. and C/K are typical, but not documented anywhere. The barrel complex needs a few steps to make, shouldn't key features be inspected individually, because more than one guy was involved in the process of making the barrel, such as front sight height, rear sight ramp calibration, rifling, headspace, etc. Most likely being inspection stamps on key parameters. It would make much more sense to inspect each step along the way of making, instead of waiting the last step and found the first step having serious issues and later steps were wasted, so there are many inspector stamps. If all key params were OK, then C/K applied under the barrel. But that's guesstimation. Expert please tell me if I am out of track here.

German military gun is interesting.

Lugerdoc · 10-18-2009, 09:26 AM

Chip, I agree with the above comments. Since your military 9mm C96 serial is under the 60K range, it would not have the big RED NINE unless applied in the field, but both grip sides should bare the full serial number inside. TH

sheepherder · 10-18-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fazer

A while back I had some C 96 seized by Australian customs. They had a safety issue with them.

I remember that discussion. Glad to hear that alvin was able to help!

Fazer · 10-18-2009, 10:24 AM

Thanks again for all the help. The grips are numbered to the gun. Now I have a couple of reworked hammers in the drawer for next time. Maybe I'll rent them out.

Cheers......Chip

sheepherder · 10-18-2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fazer

Thanks again for all the help. The grips are numbered to the gun. Now I have a couple of reworked hammers in the drawer for next time. Maybe I'll rent them out.

Cheers......Chip

Chip -

Was it just the hammer(s) that satisfied the Customs inspectors??? They wanted a half-****/safety requirement, IIRC...

Heh...Forum won't let me say...c o c k...

Fazer · 10-18-2009, 09:55 PM

Basicaly they wanted the hammer not to stike the firing pin if it slipped from your thumb while cocking it. I added a small block to the arch on the hammer, up the back. This gave me a half cook and a stopper for the hammer if it slipped. Luckely the sear raises enough to miss the block when the trigger is pulled, but is low enough to catch it when it's not. All in all, not a bad addition to be honest. But most of all it kept them happy.

Fazer · 10-21-2009, 03:19 AM

Just thought I'd put in a picture, so people can see, do to the help I received here, what I managed to get back from the customs people. I put in a couple that were here all ready as well.

There is a Late flatside, 2 X prewar commercials, one with stock, wartime commercial with German Army Accpt marks, 9mm military contract and a late post war Bolo.

alvin · 10-21-2009, 06:39 AM

I like the flatside. Is it in 24xxx range?

It's also hot in Europe. Here is one (not mine):

Fazer · 10-21-2009, 08:55 PM

Thats close to the number, it's 25209. On the right side is a stamp I've seen before, but the brain won't place it at the moment. It's like tree branch on it's side, or half an antler.

alvin · 10-21-2009, 09:34 PM

The "tree" represents the famous Oberndorf Proof House.

Regarding C96, an article in memorial of Burton Brenner (owner of Federal Ordnance, passed away in August 2009) published by Small Arms Review says "The Broomhandle was consistently a scarce and valuable item on the world market. Large quantities of them did not seem to exist in any one-supply source." (November issue, 2009).

Brenner/Federal Ordnance imported large volume of C&R surplus into the U.S. from Asia in 1980s. Many C96s flooding on gunbroker.com today were imported by him.

sheepherder · 10-21-2009, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fazer

Thats close to the number, it's 25209. On the right side is a stamp I've seen before, but the brain won't place it at the moment. It's like tree branch on it's side, or half an antler.

One of the members here has it as his avatar...

alanint · 10-22-2009, 05:52 AM

It is half a Deer antler.

This is the simbol of the Ulm Proof House, which inspected and proofed, (and still does) a number of firearms, including some models of C96....

alvin · 10-22-2009, 06:45 AM

alanint -- Strictly speaking, it's not Ulm Proof House in context of early C96. However, Ulm Proof House is indeed related with old Oberndorf Proof House. In 1952, West Germany was allowed to make firearms, a new proof house was setup in Ulm in successor to the Oberndorf one. The antler is used by this new facility (from The Standard Directory of Proof Marks, page 55). So, Ulm is post WWII.

Lugerdoc · 10-22-2009, 09:14 AM

It makes sense that the Government would locate a proofing facility where the manufacturers are, since both Walther & Kreighoff relocated to Ulm from their previous locations in Thuringia, DDR. TH

sheepherder · 10-22-2009, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

It makes sense that the Government would locate a proofing facility where the manufacturers are, since both Walther & Kreighoff relocated to Ulm from their previous locations in Thuringia, DDR. TH

What exactly is involved in "proofing"??? I've read of firing two shots with cartridges of increased amounts of powder; but does it just involve the barrel, held in a special firing fixture; or does it require the entire pistol held in a Ransom-Rest like device??? Does each & every barrel require "proofing", or just a representative sampling???

alanint · 10-22-2009, 01:36 PM

My understanding is that each and every weapon is fired with a specific overpressured round designed to "pass/fail" the weapon upon firing.
If the weapon survives the test, it is "proofed" with the proof house's stamp.

alvin · 10-22-2009, 07:55 PM

Two things are interesting regarding C96 proofing. I am puzzled by (1), please help.

(1) C96 was proofed after being finished. Does that make much sense from cost point of view? If a gun failed proofing, it's trashed and the finishing effort was also wasted. Why did not Mauser submit unfinished "white" guns for proofing and only finish those passed ones?

Would shipping guns back to factory to continue working cost more? That's the only reason that I can think of.

Hopefully, experts would help me on this one.

(2) Three parts were proofed: Barrel, Bolt, and Bolt Lock. Make perfect sense.

alvin · 10-23-2009, 06:34 AM

Thought my (1) over.

It probably implies "pass rate is very high", so shipping lots of guns back and forth between proofing facility and factory did not worth the effort. Finishing the factory job, then doing the proofing job, and wasted the failed ones (very low percentage anyway), would make sense under this condition.

10-18-2009, 03:39 AM	#1
Fazer Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Perth, West Oz Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	C 96 Help A while back I had some C 96 seized by Australian customs. They had a safety issue with them. Anyway thanks to the help I received here, Thanks Alvin, I now have the pistols. They have their original bits back in and all is well. It took a while but the main thing is I have them. I am now trying to place one of them. It is 9mm Sn39341. It has non 9 marked grips. It has late type extractor, 2 lug firing pin, new safety. All numbers match. The SN is on left diagonal flat with German proof under neith, The top has the full Oberndorf markings as well on the right rear of frame. The right side opposet the German proof is a crown over something.A T or vase or something, it's clear, I just can't figure out what it's supposed to be. On the underside of the barrel, just forward of the frame is a M and a 6 pointed star. Just behind them is crown over RC, a crown over K, and in lager stamping 6SY. Can any sence be made of these markings. I am guessing I have a 9mm military ciontract due to the low SN number and the later refinements. Any help appreciated. Thanks again for all your help...........Chip

10-18-2009, 09:26 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Chip, I agree with the above comments. Since your military 9mm C96 serial is under the 60K range, it would not have the big RED NINE unless applied in the field, but both grip sides should bare the full serial number inside. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-21-2009, 03:19 AM	#8
Fazer Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Perth, West Oz Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Just thought I'd put in a picture, so people can see, do to the help I received here, what I managed to get back from the customs people. I put in a couple that were here all ready as well. There is a Late flatside, 2 X prewar commercials, one with stock, wartime commercial with German Army Accpt marks, 9mm military contract and a late post war Bolo. Attached Thumbnails

10-21-2009, 06:39 AM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I like the flatside. Is it in 24xxx range? It's also hot in Europe. Here is one (not mine): Attached Thumbnails

10-22-2009, 09:14 AM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	It makes sense that the Government would locate a proofing facility where the manufacturers are, since both Walther & Kreighoff relocated to Ulm from their previous locations in Thuringia, DDR. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-18-2009, 08:47 AM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Great and you're welcome! The description of 9m/m sounds correct to me. The mark on right side of chamber is supposed to be C/J, so called Imperial Acceptance Stamp. The marks under the barrel are still myth. The stamps on yours are typical, but I don't know the exact meaning of them. C/RC is not typical, but it appears on some Lugers and is well addressed there. I assume this C/RC has the same meaning. M over Star. Actually, they are two marks. M is M and Star is Star. M is probably Mauser's barrel acceptance stamp. M is on many prewar and postwar Mausers, not 9m/m specific. Star is unclear. But it's supposed to be there. I once acquired a fancy 9m/m rig in sn 8xxxx, which looks great except a few issues. Missing M and Star is one of those issues. I believed it's a Weimar rework and seller was kind enough to allow me to return it. 6, S, Y, etc. and C/K are typical, but not documented anywhere. The barrel complex needs a few steps to make, shouldn't key features be inspected individually, because more than one guy was involved in the process of making the barrel, such as front sight height, rear sight ramp calibration, rifling, headspace, etc. Most likely being inspection stamps on key parameters. It would make much more sense to inspect each step along the way of making, instead of waiting the last step and found the first step having serious issues and later steps were wasted, so there are many inspector stamps. If all key params were OK, then C/K applied under the barrel. But that's guesstimation. Expert please tell me if I am out of track here. German military gun is interesting.

10-18-2009, 10:24 AM	#5
Fazer Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Perth, West Oz Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Thanks again for all the help. The grips are numbered to the gun. Now I have a couple of reworked hammers in the drawer for next time. Maybe I'll rent them out. Cheers......Chip

10-18-2009, 09:55 PM	#7
Fazer Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Perth, West Oz Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Basicaly they wanted the hammer not to stike the firing pin if it slipped from your thumb while cocking it. I added a small block to the arch on the hammer, up the back. This gave me a half cook and a stopper for the hammer if it slipped. Luckely the sear raises enough to miss the block when the trigger is pulled, but is low enough to catch it when it's not. All in all, not a bad addition to be honest. But most of all it kept them happy.

10-21-2009, 08:55 PM	#10
Fazer Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Perth, West Oz Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Thats close to the number, it's 25209. On the right side is a stamp I've seen before, but the brain won't place it at the moment. It's like tree branch on it's side, or half an antler.

10-21-2009, 09:34 PM	#11
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The "tree" represents the famous Oberndorf Proof House. Regarding C96, an article in memorial of Burton Brenner (owner of Federal Ordnance, passed away in August 2009) published by Small Arms Review says "The Broomhandle was consistently a scarce and valuable item on the world market. Large quantities of them did not seem to exist in any one-supply source." (November issue, 2009). Brenner/Federal Ordnance imported large volume of C&R surplus into the U.S. from Asia in 1980s. Many C96s flooding on gunbroker.com today were imported by him.

10-22-2009, 05:52 AM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	It is half a Deer antler. This is the simbol of the Ulm Proof House, which inspected and proofed, (and still does) a number of firearms, including some models of C96....

10-22-2009, 06:45 AM	#14
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	alanint -- Strictly speaking, it's not Ulm Proof House in context of early C96. However, Ulm Proof House is indeed related with old Oberndorf Proof House. In 1952, West Germany was allowed to make firearms, a new proof house was setup in Ulm in successor to the Oberndorf one. The antler is used by this new facility (from The Standard Directory of Proof Marks, page 55). So, Ulm is post WWII.

10-22-2009, 01:36 PM	#17
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	My understanding is that each and every weapon is fired with a specific overpressured round designed to "pass/fail" the weapon upon firing. If the weapon survives the test, it is "proofed" with the proof house's stamp.

10-22-2009, 07:55 PM	#18
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Two things are interesting regarding C96 proofing. I am puzzled by (1), please help. (1) C96 was proofed after being finished. Does that make much sense from cost point of view? If a gun failed proofing, it's trashed and the finishing effort was also wasted. Why did not Mauser submit unfinished "white" guns for proofing and only finish those passed ones? Would shipping guns back to factory to continue working cost more? That's the only reason that I can think of. Hopefully, experts would help me on this one. (2) Three parts were proofed: Barrel, Bolt, and Bolt Lock. Make perfect sense.

10-23-2009, 06:34 AM	#19
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Thought my (1) over. It probably implies "pass rate is very high", so shipping lots of guns back and forth between proofing facility and factory did not worth the effort. Finishing the factory job, then doing the proofing job, and wasted the failed ones (very low percentage anyway), would make sense under this condition.