Ethical?

jeffs · 10-27-2008, 01:46 PM

Hi

As someone new to the land of Lugers, I am still trying to figure things out:

How can one really tell if the seemingly correct two digit serial numbers on the small parts are actually from the same 4 digit serial number? For instance, #80 on a side plate could conceivably be from an Erfurt 3980f from 1916, or from an Erfurt 7580c from 1914, or maybe it's really from a DWM 6980b from 1917, and so on and so on.

Given the amount of trading and/or selling small parts by number, is it then proper for me to assume that it is acceptable practice to assemble and sell/buy collector Lugers this way?

Thanks in advance for your insights!

Jeff

Vlim · 10-27-2008, 01:55 PM

Jeff,

That's a very difficult subject and it's virtually impossible to tell numbered parts apart on guns that were fabricated by the same company during the same era.

There are some checks that can be made, however:
Erfurt small parts are usually marked with an inspector's marking, while DWM small parts are not. Erfurt and DWM used a numbering style that differed from, for example, the Mauser style. Mauser went to a salt-dip process in 1937, etc, etc....

I wouldn't call the process acceptable, but it is reality...

John Sabato · 10-27-2008, 01:56 PM

Hi Jeff,

Generally, to seek to restore a Luger to its original condition using parts that are genuine to the period, and possibly correct is certainly not unethical, but if the gun "restorer," later sells that Luger to another potential collector without identifying the fact that certain numbered parts have been replaced, as "all matching"... that is where the line of ethics is crossed.

Advanced collectors can research and generally tell if a part is made by the same manufacturer as the host gun... and is authentic... or has been substituted by the current or previous owner. These members are the knowledge "sharers"

New or inexperienced collectors are easily taken advantage of by unethical dealers and collectors, and that is part of what this forum is all about: Educating Luger collectors and enthusiasts to the fine points of Luger research and authenication so that less fraud can take place.

Does that answer your question?

Heinz · 10-27-2008, 02:00 PM

Jeff, the "forced matching" of parts is not an acceptable practice however it is freely indulged in. There is a significant profit realized with each "matching part" added to the pistol. Force matching is considered a less viscious crime than restamping the parts which is considered by all to be outright faking. I guess there is always some chance the matching number you find could be the one originally with the pistol.
There are some ways of detecting if a correctly numbered part is suspicious. Erfurts in general are easy to tell from DWMs because of the rigorous acceptance marking followed on the Erfurts. This is a thing you will need to educate yourself on.

One of the most likely traded out parts is the magazuine. A matching magazine may add $200 or more to a P08, the second matching magazine even more. And there is a very low likelihood that any Luger that served in combat came home with matching magazines. But the number available with matching magazines goes up every year. I would expect matching magazines in police pistols, find it believable in Navy pistols, and find it highly unlikely in an Imperial pistol showing any use at all.

Be careful, tuition in Luger U can be expensive.

jeffs · 10-27-2008, 02:25 PM

Thank you, John and Heinz.

I conclude though, that when one is considering purchasing a supposedly matching Imperial Luger, there is no relatively practical way to verify that all the small numbered parts were originally from the same gun

Thanks,
Jeff

Edward Tinker · 10-27-2008, 02:43 PM

Jeff, yes and no.... Fonts should be the same on assorted parts, while a DWM should not have Erfurt acceptance stamps on a part, and an Erfurt should have those acceptance markings.

Luger collecting can be a minefield and I am amazed when I see folks spend big money on a risky venture without proper guidance...

Ed

jeffs · 10-27-2008, 03:42 PM

Thanks Ed.

Jeff

Heinz · 10-28-2008, 09:43 AM

"Verify" is a pretty strict criteria. More pratical is that if it requires an explanation, it will always require an explanation and will bring the value down. Look at a lot of them. Many you see at shows will have dubious characteristics. Buy a couple of good books to start with. Find a reliable dealer. Ed Tinker is very honest about his stuff. So are Tom Armstrong and George Anderson. Others will pipe in on who they have dealt with.

10-27-2008, 01:46 PM	#1
jeffs User Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ethical? Hi As someone new to the land of Lugers, I am still trying to figure things out: How can one really tell if the seemingly correct two digit serial numbers on the small parts are actually from the same 4 digit serial number? For instance, #80 on a side plate could conceivably be from an Erfurt 3980f from 1916, or from an Erfurt 7580c from 1914, or maybe it's really from a DWM 6980b from 1917, and so on and so on. Given the amount of trading and/or selling small parts by number, is it then proper for me to assume that it is acceptable practice to assemble and sell/buy collector Lugers this way? Thanks in advance for your insights! Jeff

10-27-2008, 01:56 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Hi Jeff, Generally, to seek to restore a Luger to its original condition using parts that are genuine to the period, and possibly correct is certainly not unethical, but if the gun "restorer," later sells that Luger to another potential collector without identifying the fact that certain numbered parts have been replaced, as "all matching"... that is where the line of ethics is crossed. Advanced collectors can research and generally tell if a part is made by the same manufacturer as the host gun... and is authentic... or has been substituted by the current or previous owner. These members are the knowledge "sharers" New or inexperienced collectors are easily taken advantage of by unethical dealers and collectors, and that is part of what this forum is all about: Educating Luger collectors and enthusiasts to the fine points of Luger research and authenication so that less fraud can take place. Does that answer your question? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-27-2008, 02:43 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,591 Times in 2,114 Posts	Jeff, yes and no.... Fonts should be the same on assorted parts, while a DWM should not have Erfurt acceptance stamps on a part, and an Erfurt should have those acceptance markings. Luger collecting can be a minefield and I am amazed when I see folks spend big money on a risky venture without proper guidance... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-27-2008, 01:55 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Jeff, That's a very difficult subject and it's virtually impossible to tell numbered parts apart on guns that were fabricated by the same company during the same era. There are some checks that can be made, however: Erfurt small parts are usually marked with an inspector's marking, while DWM small parts are not. Erfurt and DWM used a numbering style that differed from, for example, the Mauser style. Mauser went to a salt-dip process in 1937, etc, etc.... I wouldn't call the process acceptable, but it is reality...

10-27-2008, 02:00 PM	#4
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	Jeff, the "forced matching" of parts is not an acceptable practice however it is freely indulged in. There is a significant profit realized with each "matching part" added to the pistol. Force matching is considered a less viscious crime than restamping the parts which is considered by all to be outright faking. I guess there is always some chance the matching number you find could be the one originally with the pistol. There are some ways of detecting if a correctly numbered part is suspicious. Erfurts in general are easy to tell from DWMs because of the rigorous acceptance marking followed on the Erfurts. This is a thing you will need to educate yourself on. One of the most likely traded out parts is the magazuine. A matching magazine may add $200 or more to a P08, the second matching magazine even more. And there is a very low likelihood that any Luger that served in combat came home with matching magazines. But the number available with matching magazines goes up every year. I would expect matching magazines in police pistols, find it believable in Navy pistols, and find it highly unlikely in an Imperial pistol showing any use at all. Be careful, tuition in Luger U can be expensive.

10-27-2008, 02:25 PM	#5
jeffs User Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you, John and Heinz. I conclude though, that when one is considering purchasing a supposedly matching Imperial Luger, there is no relatively practical way to verify that all the small numbered parts were originally from the same gun Thanks, Jeff

10-27-2008, 03:42 PM	#7
jeffs User Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Ed. Jeff

10-28-2008, 09:43 AM	#8
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	"Verify" is a pretty strict criteria. More pratical is that if it requires an explanation, it will always require an explanation and will bring the value down. Look at a lot of them. Many you see at shows will have dubious characteristics. Buy a couple of good books to start with. Find a reliable dealer. Ed Tinker is very honest about his stuff. So are Tom Armstrong and George Anderson. Others will pipe in on who they have dealt with.