Tell me about my 1911 Erfurt.

bchamorro · 08-18-2008, 11:09 PM

I made a thread a few months ago about this Luger, but now I have great pics and here is your change to tell me about this P08.

I bought this P08 in Managua, Nicaragua, from a retired army general. I got it for $ USD 650

I have no idea how this pistol ended up in Nicaragua.

What has this luger been throuh?

]

Dwight Gruber · 08-19-2008, 12:20 AM

Barney,

Thanks very much for the presentation of your very interesting Luger. The parts and markings on this gun tell of its existence and use from 1911 into the 1950s.

To start off with, the major parts come from three distinct sources: the receiver, DWM; the center toggle, Erfurt; the frame, Mauser.

The receiver was manufactured in 1911 for a DWM imperial military P08. This is demonstrated simply by the date on the top of the receiver, and the Imperial eagle proof on the right side of the receiver.

The center toggle was manufactured by Erfurt during WWI, demonstrated of course by the Efrurt stamp and inspection mark. It is hard to tell whether or not the entire toggle train is from Erfurt; there are no inspection stamps on the breechblock or extractor, and the top of the rear toggle, where the inspector stamp would appear, is not shown.

The frame was manufactured by Mauser betrween 1937 and 1941. This is revealed by the existence of the Mauser "hump" at the back of the frame (instituted in 1937) and the absence of a P08 stamp on the left frame panel, instituted in 1941. The v serial number suffix indicates the year of manufacture as either 1937 or 1939.

The story gets only more interesting from here. The gun whose frame this was originally, was in Police service in the Soviet zone of occupied Berlin, as demonstrated by the daisy I S gripstrap unit mark. This has been explained best by George Wheeler (Schupo) in a post aboaut a similarly marked Luger on Jan Still's forum http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...in+soviet+zone :

"...these are East German Volkspolizei markings indicating your luger continued in police service long after the Weimar Republic. These marks are still not fully understood but my current understanding of them is that the star (sometimes refered to as a daisy stamp) indicates postwar service with the Berlin Police and the "S" indicates the Soviet Zone of Occupation. The Roman numerals seem to indicate an area or precinct but that is less certain."

The absence of a sear safety on the receiver indicates that it was not in Police service during the Weimar era.

The gun continued in East German service, either active or in storage, until sometime after 1950. At that time the frame, receiver, and toggle were assembled into the Luger you own today. This is demonstrated by the Eagle c/U inspection stamps on the left frame and receiver, and the c/N power proofs on the barrel and center toggle. These are the marks used by the proof house at Suhl (East Germany) as introduced in 1950. The major parts were re-serialized during this assembly.

Normally at the time of rebarrelling the barrel was stamped with a code indicating the date of the work; it is regrettable that this one is not so stamped. Also, all three of the toggle pieces are commonly stamped c/N; it would be useful to know if this is the case with this Luger, and what, if any, proof mark might exist on the left side of the breechblock. It might also be revealing to know the serial number markings on all the small parts.

The matching #2 magazine is also of East German manufacture. The 2/1001 stamp is the manufacturing code for P08 magazines by V.E.B. Ernst Thalmann, formerly Haenel-Werk. The base is not actually aluminum, but probably a zinc alloy.

Considering all these circumstances, it would be really interesting to know the story of the General who previously owned it!

Thanks very much, again, for the presentation--tracing this gun's origins has been a very enjoyable exercise.

--Dwight

alvin · 08-19-2008, 07:49 AM

Dwight -- Thanks a lot for the analysis. Learned a lot from your post, always. I have one question regarding the Eagle and C/U on the left side of the gun -- Do they always appear on East Germany Lugers? Or "optional".... only on postwar assembled guns, inspected fitting of newly married receiver and frame?

====

"the General who previously owned it!"..... Is it supposed to be a DDR police gun? Or did DDR also issue Lugers to high rank army officer as well?

bchamorro · 08-19-2008, 09:28 AM

Thank you so much Dwight! I got a much better answer than I expected.

Vlim · 08-19-2008, 10:46 AM

Well, DDR surplus guns did end up in many areas where the Eastern-Block countries tried to make friends. They were found in major conflict zones, including Palestine, Algeria and Vietnam. There must have been some surplus arsenals that could be used to help 'friends in need' during the cold war years.

Finding the crown/U on a DDR gun is not the norm. The 'U' stands for 'Untersuchung' and is found on guns that have been proofed with multiple rounds.

alvin · 08-19-2008, 11:26 PM

Some Lugers and BHPs showing up in Vietnam were captured from French. Soviet also sent Vietnam some WWII captured MP40 in early 1960s or late 1950s..... one story said Ho Chi Minh was so upset when those "collectibles" arrove and ordered his men "send them to the Museum!"

alanint · 08-20-2008, 06:10 AM

US Special Forces also issued MP40s and M3 and M3A1 Grease Guns to local "Ruff Puff" forces in Vietnam. This along with all the other WW2 era weapons present, (i.e. M1 Carbines, M1 Garands, BARs, 1911s, M1919A4s, Thompsons, etc.)
MG42s and 38s where also not uncommon.
Finnish War hero Larry Thornton even carried a 06 Springfield while operating with SOG in Vietman!!

Dwight Gruber · 08-20-2008, 01:27 PM

Gerben,

My reading of the subject is that the 'Untersichung' is true for the German proof law of 1891, in force until the proof law of 1937; and which remained in use throughout that time by the proof house in Oberndorf (seen on Mausers). In 1911-1912 the proof houses in Suhl, Zella-Mehlis, and Frankfurt/Oder agreed upon a Nitro proof protocol and the c/N stamp, which was never officially part of the state proof act.

The 1950 East German proof law used both the c/U and c/N, but retained the c/U only in its 'inspected' sense; the actual overcharge power proof was the c/N. The eagle is the 'final proof', in a sense a final acceptance mark.

It is quite correct that finding the c/U on East German Lugers is not the norm, and the proofing suite on this gun is evidence of its being considered as a completely new assembly in its present form.

--Dwight

08-18-2008, 11:09 PM	#1
bchamorro User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Managua, Nicaragua Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tell me about my 1911 Erfurt. I made a thread a few months ago about this Luger, but now I have great pics and here is your change to tell me about this P08. I bought this P08 in Managua, Nicaragua, from a retired army general. I got it for $ USD 650 I have no idea how this pistol ended up in Nicaragua. What has this luger been throuh? ]

08-19-2008, 12:20 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Barney, Thanks very much for the presentation of your very interesting Luger. The parts and markings on this gun tell of its existence and use from 1911 into the 1950s. To start off with, the major parts come from three distinct sources: the receiver, DWM; the center toggle, Erfurt; the frame, Mauser. The receiver was manufactured in 1911 for a DWM imperial military P08. This is demonstrated simply by the date on the top of the receiver, and the Imperial eagle proof on the right side of the receiver. The center toggle was manufactured by Erfurt during WWI, demonstrated of course by the Efrurt stamp and inspection mark. It is hard to tell whether or not the entire toggle train is from Erfurt; there are no inspection stamps on the breechblock or extractor, and the top of the rear toggle, where the inspector stamp would appear, is not shown. The frame was manufactured by Mauser betrween 1937 and 1941. This is revealed by the existence of the Mauser "hump" at the back of the frame (instituted in 1937) and the absence of a P08 stamp on the left frame panel, instituted in 1941. The v serial number suffix indicates the year of manufacture as either 1937 or 1939. The story gets only more interesting from here. The gun whose frame this was originally, was in Police service in the Soviet zone of occupied Berlin, as demonstrated by the daisy I S gripstrap unit mark. This has been explained best by George Wheeler (Schupo) in a post aboaut a similarly marked Luger on Jan Still's forum http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...in+soviet+zone : "...these are East German Volkspolizei markings indicating your luger continued in police service long after the Weimar Republic. These marks are still not fully understood but my current understanding of them is that the star (sometimes refered to as a daisy stamp) indicates postwar service with the Berlin Police and the "S" indicates the Soviet Zone of Occupation. The Roman numerals seem to indicate an area or precinct but that is less certain." The absence of a sear safety on the receiver indicates that it was not in Police service during the Weimar era. The gun continued in East German service, either active or in storage, until sometime after 1950. At that time the frame, receiver, and toggle were assembled into the Luger you own today. This is demonstrated by the Eagle c/U inspection stamps on the left frame and receiver, and the c/N power proofs on the barrel and center toggle. These are the marks used by the proof house at Suhl (East Germany) as introduced in 1950. The major parts were re-serialized during this assembly. Normally at the time of rebarrelling the barrel was stamped with a code indicating the date of the work; it is regrettable that this one is not so stamped. Also, all three of the toggle pieces are commonly stamped c/N; it would be useful to know if this is the case with this Luger, and what, if any, proof mark might exist on the left side of the breechblock. It might also be revealing to know the serial number markings on all the small parts. The matching #2 magazine is also of East German manufacture. The 2/1001 stamp is the manufacturing code for P08 magazines by V.E.B. Ernst Thalmann, formerly Haenel-Werk. The base is not actually aluminum, but probably a zinc alloy. Considering all these circumstances, it would be really interesting to know the story of the General who previously owned it! Thanks very much, again, for the presentation--tracing this gun's origins has been a very enjoyable exercise. --Dwight

08-19-2008, 07:49 AM	#3
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Dwight -- Thanks a lot for the analysis. Learned a lot from your post, always. I have one question regarding the Eagle and C/U on the left side of the gun -- Do they always appear on East Germany Lugers? Or "optional".... only on postwar assembled guns, inspected fitting of newly married receiver and frame? ==== "the General who previously owned it!"..... Is it supposed to be a DDR police gun? Or did DDR also issue Lugers to high rank army officer as well?

08-19-2008, 09:28 AM	#4
bchamorro User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Managua, Nicaragua Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you so much Dwight! I got a much better answer than I expected.

08-19-2008, 10:46 AM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Well, DDR surplus guns did end up in many areas where the Eastern-Block countries tried to make friends. They were found in major conflict zones, including Palestine, Algeria and Vietnam. There must have been some surplus arsenals that could be used to help 'friends in need' during the cold war years. Finding the crown/U on a DDR gun is not the norm. The 'U' stands for 'Untersuchung' and is found on guns that have been proofed with multiple rounds.

08-19-2008, 11:26 PM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Some Lugers and BHPs showing up in Vietnam were captured from French. Soviet also sent Vietnam some WWII captured MP40 in early 1960s or late 1950s..... one story said Ho Chi Minh was so upset when those "collectibles" arrove and ordered his men "send them to the Museum!"

08-20-2008, 06:10 AM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	US Special Forces also issued MP40s and M3 and M3A1 Grease Guns to local "Ruff Puff" forces in Vietnam. This along with all the other WW2 era weapons present, (i.e. M1 Carbines, M1 Garands, BARs, 1911s, M1919A4s, Thompsons, etc.) MG42s and 38s where also not uncommon. Finnish War hero Larry Thornton even carried a 06 Springfield while operating with SOG in Vietman!!

08-20-2008, 01:27 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Gerben, My reading of the subject is that the 'Untersichung' is true for the German proof law of 1891, in force until the proof law of 1937; and which remained in use throughout that time by the proof house in Oberndorf (seen on Mausers). In 1911-1912 the proof houses in Suhl, Zella-Mehlis, and Frankfurt/Oder agreed upon a Nitro proof protocol and the c/N stamp, which was never officially part of the state proof act. The 1950 East German proof law used both the c/U and c/N, but retained the c/U only in its 'inspected' sense; the actual overcharge power proof was the c/N. The eagle is the 'final proof', in a sense a final acceptance mark. It is quite correct that finding the c/U on East German Lugers is not the norm, and the proofing suite on this gun is evidence of its being considered as a completely new assembly in its present form. --Dwight