Right Ammo to the luger.

Jan-Erik · 05-21-2008, 12:56 PM

Hi I am new (from Norway)to the forum and I have a question about the ammo.
During the years (50s , 60s and a little in to the 70s)after the WWII the norwegian airforce used the Luger as the main pistol.

HAving been with my father at the shooting range many many times and being an active competition shooter it was one main problem with the Luger. Malfunctioning and especially with the empty shell standing up like a chimney.
There were a lot of theories about what it coul be from magazine to everything else.
The main reason for the malfunctioning was that hard military ammo were used. Much harder than the black german ammo made for the Luger.

What specs should a good and functional ammo for the Luger be??

One solution for the mal functioning was to increase the mass of the barrel. So the competion pistols were modified and functioned quite well, but the pistol seemed to be very sensitive to the ammo.

I would appreciate comments please

SIGP2101 · 05-21-2008, 04:10 PM

Here is the secret revealed. Medium speed burning powder will fix 80% of the problems. The rest is springs, OAL, magazine, ect..
Majority of today's HG ammo uses fast burning powder and that create problems in Lugers.

Vlim · 05-21-2008, 07:56 PM

Jan-Erik, I take it that Norway also used surplus WW2 German 9mm ammunition?

The steel cased 9mm never worked properly in the P08 and many German 9mm crates carried warning labels to inform that using the ammo increased the chance of feeding and ejection problems.

The solution is to make sure the pistol is up to specs when it comes to springs. 70 year old springs have lost quite a bit of their resiliance. Another part is to make sure the magazines are in a good condition, spring and feed lip wear again as well. The other bit is the ammunition, correct specs, OAL (overall average length should be relatively high for a 9mm), slower burning powder and a classic ogival or flat nose bullet.

The Americans prefer Winchester 9mm, the Europeans go for Sellier & Bellot 124 grain (147 Grain subsonics work quite good as well, but are relatively short when it comes to OAL).

To sum it up:
-Gun in good technical condition (tolerances).
-Good springs.
-Good magazines (for example: new MecGar magazines made in Italy).
-Good ammunition.

Things to avoid:
-Mixmasters (guns constructed from the parts bin without proper fitting).
-Worn springs.
-Battered magazines.
-Ammo that's too hot (+P, etc..)
-Ammo that's oddly shaped or too short.
-Steel cased ammo.

The shooting stance can also cause problems, however. Shoot a luger more like a revolver than like a service pistol. Never use your supporting hand to push up against the magazine from below. Good results are reached with a single handed pose, where the shooting arm is slightly bent.

Dwight Gruber · 05-21-2008, 09:23 PM

Jan-Erik,

Welcome to the Forum.

Shooting the Luger is a great and satisfying pleasure when everything works right. Gerben's information is very good and useful. The primary cause of the problem which you describe, called 'stovepiping', is failure to hold the pistol firmly enough during firing. If the wrist is loose and allows the gun to rise during firing, too much of the recoil impulse is absorbed by the wrist and not enough is left for the pistol to function properly.

--Dwight

Steinar · 05-22-2008, 07:08 AM

Velkommen Jan Erik,
as a former officer in the norwegian army (not airforce

), I still recall the days where a Luger on the belt was a common sight. Usually guard personell, medic or low priority homeguard divisions had them. There was better alternaties back then (Colt, Browning HP..), so most people having the choice, did not go for the Luger.

Back then, it was not the NATO ammunition I'm guessing you was shooting that was used (those white boxes containing 50 rounds). It was the gray 16 rounds boxes made by Raufoss. Both are too hot for the luger and especially the post war P38's (in which I would not dare to fire a pea in!). The first NATO ammunition had warnings about this on the label, but the warning disappeared as the last Lugers faded away in the late 90s(!).

The thickness of barrels, usually cut down Shmeizer barrels or Lathi replacements, had nothing to do with making them more functionable. But was mostly a result of the winning instinct amoung the officers competing in shooting events. I have never seen a modified Luger in regular military service.. Hard ammunition is neither the cause for the jamming. Loose grip, bad maintenance, cold weather, bad luck..

Jan-Erik · 05-22-2008, 04:09 PM

Than you all for the comments. I agree with much of it and what I did not think of was the slower burning powder in reloaded ammo.
I have reloaded much and have used the fast burning N-310 from Vihitavuori. That was too fast and the tolerances were two critical and went for the n-330 which functioned better with the same bullet speed. I used 124 grain bullets.
To Steinar you are right in the different ammos you mentioned but before that they used a submachinegun ammo from UK called Mk IIz which was very powerfull like the +P today I imagine. It was then some started to use the Schmeisser barrels which made the pistols function better as their mass was directly placed in the operating mechanism as the barrel and forkpeace became heavier which in turn acts as stronger springs and slow down the acceleration a bit.
There were a lot of research about magazines and other things that did not work as well as the increased mass on the barrel. But the construction of the Luger I think require smaller tolerances for the ammo so that with the slower burning powder I will try. I also saw a difference by shooting lead bullets and full mantel jackets.
I have not used the Luger for some years and will take up that again. The precision in the thick barreled Lugers (modified) is good with the right ammo so it is now to find the good precision ammo and also good functioning.
I will go through much of the comments here to see how this works.
Thanks again for the comments

John Sabato · 05-22-2008, 04:29 PM

Jan-Erik

Let me add my welcome to the Lugerforum.

I do not know if you have Winchester 115 gr. 9mm ammunition available in Norway, but this ammo functions well in most military Lugers... try it if it is available. It is sold here in 100 round bulk boxes in Walmart. Do you have Walmart in Norway? I know they have this store in Germany.

Steinar · 05-22-2008, 04:46 PM

..question is aimed at Jan Erik, but shameless as I am, I give an answer to it

Yes, we have the Winchester 115 gr. 9mm
No, we don't have Walmart

Jan Erik, interesting that the heavy barrel makes it function better on hot ammunition. In a way, it makes sence.. just never heard anyone use that as the reason for replaceing the barrel.

John Sabato · 05-22-2008, 04:50 PM

I never heard of using a Schmeisser barrel either? Was this a common practice in Europe after WW2?

Jan-Erik · 05-23-2008, 03:17 PM

Hi again.
Thanks a lot for the comments and recommendations.
Yes we have win 115gr ammo here but no Walmart. I will try it. The reason for using the Scmeisser barrels was the availability in the military for those barrels and they needed not much work to fit. But later they used a thicker barrel I don't know what that was but it was thicker in the front and for the Swedish FFV ammo they used in the force worked fine but
the availability in the sivil market was bad.
Steinar:
These barrels were not commonly used. Not much in the army but in the airforce they used them quite a lot for the competition shooting so it was a combination to stretch the barrel to the max allowed length and for the reliability of the function.
The trigger weight and function was also a science on these guns especially to have a defined trigger point that did not vary with use and temperature. This was modified so the trigger weight became on the spot and very defined. I am fortunate to have my fathers Luger which is in top tune for competition and an other which is equal numbers both are german originals.
Have not found out yet what producer factory though.
So I have now to find the most reliable ammo for both of them.
Thanks again for info

Vlim · 05-23-2008, 04:57 PM

Jan-Erik, Identifying the original producer shouldn't be too difficult as there were only a few tool sets available. The toggle marking is a good place to start.

Steinar · 05-24-2008, 06:07 AM

Jan Erik, it would be interesting to see some pictures of the Lugers. Especially the top, then we can help you out with the manufacturer.

Sieger · 06-04-2008, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGP2101
Here is the secret revealed. Medium speed burning powder will fix 80% of the problems. The rest is springs, OAL, magazine, ect..
Majority of todayÃ¢??s HG ammo uses fast burning powder and that create problems in Lugers.

I couldn't agree more with your observations!!!!

I'll be specific and recommend Power Pistol and SR 4756, as these work wonderfully and are highly accurate in the P-08.

Sieger

suum cuique · 08-28-2009, 11:47 AM

Hi, I will use Winchester 115gr FMJ ammo, as soon I can find/buy it.
Unfortunatly nowadays is a shortage in ammo in a lot of gun shops in my area.
I used Remington 115 gr FMJ ammo last time, it worked well.
(I just shot my Luger one time, yet. I just bougt it a few weeks ago)
Do you think this Remington ammo is too hot as well?
Thanks.

Ice · 08-28-2009, 11:56 AM

Remington 115gr FMJ should work just fine.

Charlie

PhilOhio · 08-28-2009, 12:09 PM

Jan-Erik,

I also had a lot of trouble with stove-pipes, while I was trying to develop lead bullet handloads for my S/42 Luger early this year. Almost all of the stove-pipes, with the empty case pointing strangely backward, were because the loads were too hot and the powder was burning too fast.

I tried many, many load variations over several months, and I completely solved the problem. The gun is now totally reliable.

My best bullet weighs from 125 to 133 grains, has exactly the ogive of the German jacketed bullet of WW-II, and is cast from a Lee #356-125-2R two-cavity mold. Seat it close to the maximum 1.171" over all; I use 1.165".

Several powders worked well, but the best has been 3.8 grains of Winchester 231. That's a fairly mild load, but not weak.

Italian Mec-Gar magazines are extremely reliable, but I have adjusted/corrected an original military magazine to function perfectly also.

In working with the Luger, it is interesting to see that there is a rather narrow range of recoil impulse which the mechanism will tolerate in order to be reliable. It must have been difficult for wartime ammunition manufacturers to maintain quality control standards assuring that the guns would work, in the field.

05-21-2008, 12:56 PM	#1
Jan-Erik New User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Right Ammo to the luger. Hi I am new (from Norway)to the forum and I have a question about the ammo. During the years (50s , 60s and a little in to the 70s)after the WWII the norwegian airforce used the Luger as the main pistol. HAving been with my father at the shooting range many many times and being an active competition shooter it was one main problem with the Luger. Malfunctioning and especially with the empty shell standing up like a chimney. There were a lot of theories about what it coul be from magazine to everything else. The main reason for the malfunctioning was that hard military ammo were used. Much harder than the black german ammo made for the Luger. What specs should a good and functional ammo for the Luger be?? One solution for the mal functioning was to increase the mass of the barrel. So the competion pistols were modified and functioned quite well, but the pistol seemed to be very sensitive to the ammo. I would appreciate comments please

05-21-2008, 04:10 PM	#2
SIGP2101 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 256 Thanks: 74 Thanked 67 Times in 32 Posts	Here is the secret revealed. Medium speed burning powder will fix 80% of the problems. The rest is springs, OAL, magazine, ect.. Majority of today's HG ammo uses fast burning powder and that create problems in Lugers. Last edited by SIGP2101; 12-06-2010 at 04:56 PM.

05-22-2008, 07:08 AM	#5
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Velkommen Jan Erik, as a former officer in the norwegian army (not airforce ), I still recall the days where a Luger on the belt was a common sight. Usually guard personell, medic or low priority homeguard divisions had them. There was better alternaties back then (Colt, Browning HP..), so most people having the choice, did not go for the Luger. Back then, it was not the NATO ammunition I'm guessing you was shooting that was used (those white boxes containing 50 rounds). It was the gray 16 rounds boxes made by Raufoss. Both are too hot for the luger and especially the post war P38's (in which I would not dare to fire a pea in!). The first NATO ammunition had warnings about this on the label, but the warning disappeared as the last Lugers faded away in the late 90s(!). The thickness of barrels, usually cut down Shmeizer barrels or Lathi replacements, had nothing to do with making them more functionable. But was mostly a result of the winning instinct amoung the officers competing in shooting events. I have never seen a modified Luger in regular military service.. Hard ammunition is neither the cause for the jamming. Loose grip, bad maintenance, cold weather, bad luck.. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

05-22-2008, 04:29 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Jan-Erik Let me add my welcome to the Lugerforum. I do not know if you have Winchester 115 gr. 9mm ammunition available in Norway, but this ammo functions well in most military Lugers... try it if it is available. It is sold here in 100 round bulk boxes in Walmart. Do you have Walmart in Norway? I know they have this store in Germany. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-22-2008, 04:46 PM	#8
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	..question is aimed at Jan Erik, but shameless as I am, I give an answer to it Yes, we have the Winchester 115 gr. 9mm No, we don't have Walmart Jan Erik, interesting that the heavy barrel makes it function better on hot ammunition. In a way, it makes sence.. just never heard anyone use that as the reason for replaceing the barrel. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

05-21-2008, 07:56 PM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Jan-Erik, I take it that Norway also used surplus WW2 German 9mm ammunition? The steel cased 9mm never worked properly in the P08 and many German 9mm crates carried warning labels to inform that using the ammo increased the chance of feeding and ejection problems. The solution is to make sure the pistol is up to specs when it comes to springs. 70 year old springs have lost quite a bit of their resiliance. Another part is to make sure the magazines are in a good condition, spring and feed lip wear again as well. The other bit is the ammunition, correct specs, OAL (overall average length should be relatively high for a 9mm), slower burning powder and a classic ogival or flat nose bullet. The Americans prefer Winchester 9mm, the Europeans go for Sellier & Bellot 124 grain (147 Grain subsonics work quite good as well, but are relatively short when it comes to OAL). To sum it up: -Gun in good technical condition (tolerances). -Good springs. -Good magazines (for example: new MecGar magazines made in Italy). -Good ammunition. Things to avoid: -Mixmasters (guns constructed from the parts bin without proper fitting). -Worn springs. -Battered magazines. -Ammo that's too hot (+P, etc..) -Ammo that's oddly shaped or too short. -Steel cased ammo. The shooting stance can also cause problems, however. Shoot a luger more like a revolver than like a service pistol. Never use your supporting hand to push up against the magazine from below. Good results are reached with a single handed pose, where the shooting arm is slightly bent.

05-21-2008, 09:23 PM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	Jan-Erik, Welcome to the Forum. Shooting the Luger is a great and satisfying pleasure when everything works right. Gerben's information is very good and useful. The primary cause of the problem which you describe, called 'stovepiping', is failure to hold the pistol firmly enough during firing. If the wrist is loose and allows the gun to rise during firing, too much of the recoil impulse is absorbed by the wrist and not enough is left for the pistol to function properly. --Dwight

05-22-2008, 04:09 PM	#6
Jan-Erik New User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Than you all for the comments. I agree with much of it and what I did not think of was the slower burning powder in reloaded ammo. I have reloaded much and have used the fast burning N-310 from Vihitavuori. That was too fast and the tolerances were two critical and went for the n-330 which functioned better with the same bullet speed. I used 124 grain bullets. To Steinar you are right in the different ammos you mentioned but before that they used a submachinegun ammo from UK called Mk IIz which was very powerfull like the +P today I imagine. It was then some started to use the Schmeisser barrels which made the pistols function better as their mass was directly placed in the operating mechanism as the barrel and forkpeace became heavier which in turn acts as stronger springs and slow down the acceleration a bit. There were a lot of research about magazines and other things that did not work as well as the increased mass on the barrel. But the construction of the Luger I think require smaller tolerances for the ammo so that with the slower burning powder I will try. I also saw a difference by shooting lead bullets and full mantel jackets. I have not used the Luger for some years and will take up that again. The precision in the thick barreled Lugers (modified) is good with the right ammo so it is now to find the good precision ammo and also good functioning. I will go through much of the comments here to see how this works. Thanks again for the comments

05-22-2008, 04:50 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I never heard of using a Schmeisser barrel either? Was this a common practice in Europe after WW2? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-23-2008, 03:17 PM	#10
Jan-Erik New User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi again. Thanks a lot for the comments and recommendations. Yes we have win 115gr ammo here but no Walmart. I will try it. The reason for using the Scmeisser barrels was the availability in the military for those barrels and they needed not much work to fit. But later they used a thicker barrel I don't know what that was but it was thicker in the front and for the Swedish FFV ammo they used in the force worked fine but the availability in the sivil market was bad. Steinar: These barrels were not commonly used. Not much in the army but in the airforce they used them quite a lot for the competition shooting so it was a combination to stretch the barrel to the max allowed length and for the reliability of the function. The trigger weight and function was also a science on these guns especially to have a defined trigger point that did not vary with use and temperature. This was modified so the trigger weight became on the spot and very defined. I am fortunate to have my fathers Luger which is in top tune for competition and an other which is equal numbers both are german originals. Have not found out yet what producer factory though. So I have now to find the most reliable ammo for both of them. Thanks again for info

05-23-2008, 04:57 PM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Jan-Erik, Identifying the original producer shouldn't be too difficult as there were only a few tool sets available. The toggle marking is a good place to start.

05-24-2008, 06:07 AM	#12
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Jan Erik, it would be interesting to see some pictures of the Lugers. Especially the top, then we can help you out with the manufacturer. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

08-28-2009, 11:47 AM	#14
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	Hi, I will use Winchester 115gr FMJ ammo, as soon I can find/buy it. Unfortunatly nowadays is a shortage in ammo in a lot of gun shops in my area. I used Remington 115 gr FMJ ammo last time, it worked well. (I just shot my Luger one time, yet. I just bougt it a few weeks ago) Do you think this Remington ammo is too hot as well? Thanks. Last edited by suum cuique; 10-15-2009 at 07:48 PM.

08-28-2009, 11:56 AM	#15
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Remington 115gr FMJ should work just fine. Charlie

08-28-2009, 12:09 PM	#16
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Jan-Erik, I also had a lot of trouble with stove-pipes, while I was trying to develop lead bullet handloads for my S/42 Luger early this year. Almost all of the stove-pipes, with the empty case pointing strangely backward, were because the loads were too hot and the powder was burning too fast. I tried many, many load variations over several months, and I completely solved the problem. The gun is now totally reliable. My best bullet weighs from 125 to 133 grains, has exactly the ogive of the German jacketed bullet of WW-II, and is cast from a Lee #356-125-2R two-cavity mold. Seat it close to the maximum 1.171" over all; I use 1.165". Several powders worked well, but the best has been 3.8 grains of Winchester 231. That's a fairly mild load, but not weak. Italian Mec-Gar magazines are extremely reliable, but I have adjusted/corrected an original military magazine to function perfectly also. In working with the Luger, it is interesting to see that there is a rather narrow range of recoil impulse which the mechanism will tolerate in order to be reliable. It must have been difficult for wartime ammunition manufacturers to maintain quality control standards assuring that the guns would work, in the field.