Neophyte Desires Help For Luger's "Story"

[bmcgilvray]

Hello all;

I just discovered this neato Luger specialty forum and have been browsing. I enjoy classic sporting and military firearms. I had to add a Luger to the menagerie some years ago but am a neophyte about Luger lore.

I acquired this garden variety rework example in 1985 from a distributor who advertised them in "Shotgun News" Seems that they were priced at $229. I've long suspected that it was out of East Germany and my browsing here today apparently confirms it.

It's dated 1920 but the top of the receiver gives the appearance that a previous marking was removed. I'm not certain of that. Perhaps an earlier date was removed? All numbers have been "corrected" to read 8791, same as the frame, the crosshatch method used to obliterate any non matching numerals. All small parts are marked "91", some being corrected and remarked 91. The frame has a small cursive lower case "g" beneath the serial number. The barrel is unmarked except for a "Crown N" on the underside. The grips are black plastic with the bullseye motif in center. The magazine features an aluminum base and is marked "2/1001" on the left side just above the base. The right side of the receiver features three eagles above (wreaths,numerals, can't tell) at its front side. I'm assuming five illegible characters located about 1/2-inch behind the three eagles is some sort of import marking. I obtained this gun before re-importation was again allowed as best I can recall.

I bought this gun to learn about Luger design, shooting, and handling characteristics. It's an accurate and elegant design to use. It's been a rewarding experience to own it. Now I'd like to make it "speak" to me and tell me as much as possible of it's unique history.

I'll attempt to post some detailed photos.

Thanks so much for your time.

Bryan

[bmcgilvray]

Must add that the toggle is marked with "42" as read from the pistol's left side along with the "91" representing the last two digits of the serial number. I assume this is a Mauser contract part.

[John Sabato]

Welcome to the Lugerforum... You assume correctly about the toggle marked "42"... you can have a much better evaluation if you will post photographs of top, both sides, and the front of the frame, and the bottom of the barrel... where the stamps are located... make sure the photos are in good light with minimum glare and in sharp focus... members of the forum will be glad to help you understand your Luger step-child.

[bmcgilvray]

I'm getting used to the proper methods of posting photos. This is suppose to show the left side.

[bmcgilvray]

Contunued:

[bmcgilvray]

I can provide a shot of the underside of the pistol but there are no markings on the front of the grip frame nor on the trigger guard. Only the "Crown N"is visible from the underside.

[Ron Smith]

Hi Bryan,

You have a DDR VOPO (East German) police pistol. It is a 1920 production DWM (indicated by the aya4 "Dove" proofs on the right side.) The barrel is an East German replacement indicated by the lack of a serial number and the EG Crown N proof. The "Bulls Eye" grips are also original EG replacements.

The VOPOs are starting to become collectable in their own catagory. This one is a classic example.

Ron

[John Sabato]

Ron has said it all! Back when I was a young man and you could buy Lugers in this condition for about $30 from importers...(you could even do that by mail prior to 1968)... these guns used to be called "arsenal refinished" because they had been reworked, and refitted by a government arsenal...

Ron is also correct about these guns becoming collectible in their own right because of the role they played in post war German history... It will continue to increase in value... after all, there is a finite number of available original Lugers and an ever increasing number of people who are interested in learning about them and collecting them...

[bmcgilvray]

Many thanks for the "look/see" at my pistol.

Here comes the "20 questions".

Can the frame be attributed to DWM as well as the 1920 dated receiver?

What is the term "aya4" as describes the proofs?

Are these proof marks the same as number 31 on page 3 of the proof mark references?

Does the Mauser toggle suggest a World War II rebuild prior to any East German rework?

So this is not a so-called "sneak" variation which is how it was described to me once?

Didn't the Treaty of Versailles have provisions that regulated production of the Luger in 9mm in 1920?

How long did Lugers see service in East German hands after World War II?

Do the incomplete markings which appear to be E C C S A indicate an importer?

Does anyone recall the batch of Lugers coming in to the USA in the mid 1980s and advertised in the "Shotgun News"?

So a potted history of this pistol might go thus:

Manufactured in 1920 for military consumption.
Saw service through the rise of the Nazis to power and through World War II (possibly undergoing a rework).
Likely captured by the Soviets, either on Eastern Front or in stores elsewhere.
Given as material to East Germany to arm police or security forces and reworked at that time.
I'm guessing that sometime prior to 1985 it would have had to pass from East German ownership to a third party in order to have been imported to the USA.

Sure do wish it could talk!

The bore is perfect and, when I obtained it, the pistol gave the impression that it'd had been scarcely used if at all since it had been reworked. It's had about 1200 to 1500 rounds fired through it since and is pleasing to shoot. Was a little balky at first but is a reliable performer now. I shot it quite a lot the first years I had it but now it's only taken out for occasional "exercise". I loathe grease so use light machine oil on all my firearms. A little dab placed at critical points and the Luger works smoothly and well. It is stored with a thin application of RIG.

By the way, for you RIG fans, RIG has apparently been discontinued by it's parent company, Jackson Safety of Michigan. Shame too as it is one of those products that works as advertised and works well. No rust on my firearms for 30-something years now.

[Ron Smith]

Can the frame be attributed to DWM as well as the 1920 dated receiver?

Yes

What is the term "aya4" as describes the proofs?

Sorry, a typo. It should be WaA 4 or ArA 4.

The proofs on the right front of the receiver are post WWI Dove or Eagle ( Turkey ) proofs due to their appearance, both can be found on 1920 dated Lugers. Actually more of a Peace Eagle (wings folded) ArA 4 or WaA 4 below the eagles is the code used only on 1920 and 1921 production Lugers. Most likely to indicate non-war time production.

The proofs will help distinguish a 1920 date from year of production, or a Gov't property mark, also 1920. When these proofs are present, it will be a 1920 production Luger.

Are these proof marks the same as number 31 on page 3 of the proof mark references?

Not sure. I've never seen that publication. Here's a photo from Jan Still's "Weimar Lugers".





Does the Mauser toggle suggest a World War II rebuild prior to any East German rework?

Most likely an East German replacement. They used any part that would work without concern for matching parts. Pre EG German armorers were more stringent in using the correct parts.

So this is not a so-called "sneak" variation which is how it was described to me once?

No, "Sneaks" were made by BKIW (transition between DWM and Mauser) beginning in 1929. All "Sneaks" are found with a DWM or a Blank(unmarked) toggle. "Sneaks"( a marketing ploy coined by an American dealer to add mystique) were not being sneaked as has been suggested. Most likely just made up from left over, and unmarked parts. DWM (BKIW) was stuggling to stay in business and was doing anything to maintain production.

Didn't the Treaty of Versailles have provisions that regulated production of the Luger in 9mm in 1920?

Probably not. The Allied Commission had more important things to do than count Lugers.

DWM began producing Lugers for commercial / export sale in 1919.

Approx. 40 to 50 thousand 1920 and 1921 new production Lugers in the no suffix, a and b suffix range were procured for the Police, and approx. 8 to 10 thousand in the same SN suffix blocks were procured for the military.

How long did Lugers see service in East German hands after World War II?

Well into the 60's, and possibly 70's and 80's.

Do the incomplete markings which appear to be E C C S A indicate an importer?

Yes

Does anyone recall the batch of Lugers coming in to the USA in the mid 1980s and advertised in the "Shotgun News"?

This is probably one of those.

Manufactured in 1920 for military consumption.
Saw service through the rise of the Nazis to power and through World War II (possibly undergoing a rework).
Likely captured by the Soviets, either on Eastern Front or in stores elsewhere.
Given as material to East Germany to arm police or security forces and reworked at that time.
I'm guessing that sometime prior to 1985 it would have had to pass from East German ownership to a third party in order to have been imported to the USA.

That's pretty much the story.


Hope this is helpful?

Ron

[bmcgilvray]

Many thanks Ron for you kind attentions to my questions.



"Are these proof marks the same as number 31 on page 3 of the proof mark references?

Not sure. I've never seen that publication."

I didn't make myself clear. This page is found within the interesting "technical information" accessible in the left hand margin right here on the Forum.



Wondered about that "sneak" business. A luger dealer who, for some years, set up at Dallas/Fort Worth gun shows told me that. Only other reference I had about a "sneak" was a mention in a 1971 or 1972 "Guns & Ammo Annual".

You dashed my hopes for a Civil War attributed Luger. I was sorta hoping the E C C S A stood for something like "Edmonds, Colonel CSA". Oh well, maybe next time.

[Ron Smith]

Bryan,

No problem, happy to help.

"I didn't make myself clear. This page is found within the interesting "technical information" accessible in the left hand margin right here on the Forum."

I never look at that stuff. It would mean that I was paying attention.

Merely the word "Sneak" has started some pretty lively and heated discussions on both forums. So, I just pass it off for what it is. A marketing gimmick used by a well known dealer. Same as the "Black Widow" term.

As far as a Confederate Civil war connection goes? Never seen a Cap & Ball Luger , but I wouldn't doubt that one will be Foisted on Gun Broker sometime, as being a prototype owned by the Kaiser.

Ron

[bmcgilvray]

Recently hosted a forum meet for another forum in which I participate. We had a good crowd of great people from several states attend at our old place in Eastland County, Texas on Lake Leon for a meet and greet and eat, along with some great shooting fun.

Taped a label from a Red Baron pizza box to the grip frame of the Luger and introduced it as Manfred Von Richthofen's personal side arm. I'm not certain but I don't think anyone was fooled.

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, nice write up, took some time, thanks for the lessons for all.



ed

[Ron Smith]

Thanks Ed,

I wasn't doing much anyway...

Ron