Navy Luger Fakes

tom · 11-04-2001, 08:15 PM

Should any list member be contemplating putting down the $20K plus for an '04 Navy, please contact me first. I have ABSOLUTE PROOF of 3 SNs that are fake. Send me your "contemplated purchase" SN and I will let you know if it is one the "SH*T LIST"... Due to the circumstances underwhich I obtained this info, I simply cannot reveal the SNs publicly, so DON'T ASK.

Just trying to alert the list and maintain a *very special* confidence...

11-04-2001, 10:20 PM

Johnny Peppers · 11-04-2001, 10:22 PM

There are probably more fake 04's than real ones. This type of fake goes way beyond a refinish or a new set of serial numbers.

Big Norm · 11-05-2001, 02:14 PM

Johnny,

I have a hard time with your staement that there are as many fake navy Lugers as real ones. I can not challenge the statement, but it seems like you are painting with a wide paint brush. Could you expand on your statement? Where do these fakers get their rear sights from? As a collector of Navy Lugers, I would like to know just how you justify your statement? Now I am talking about Navies with 6 inch barrels and proper rear sights. Not military (4 inch barrels and army rear sights), which may have navy markings.

Big Norm

bill m · 11-05-2001, 03:11 PM

Norm,

I think JP's comments were concerning the 1904 variation, but he can clarify that with you. I have never seen a 1904 that hadn't been messed with in some way. Still has a couple pictured in his book and comments that they were both messed with. I have been told that there is no such thing as a complete original as issued 1904 as all of them have been tinkered with at sometime, and some even contend that there was never even such a model. Who knows?

As far as fake navy 6 inch Lugers go, there are a lot of total fakes out there, especially in the 1916 and 1917 dated variations. The rear site is either from a shooter, or is newly milled. They take a $400 1920 commercial, and install a new barrel, new rear site, remove the crown N proofs and Germany mark, add the C/M's and the serial number needed, put a date on it, refinish the blue, install the old strawed parts, make a matching magazine, and presto, a 1916 dated navy. Unless you know exactly what to look for, you will be fooled as these are extremely well made. $400 1920 becomes a $3200 prize navy. They will fool 99% of the collectors. People seem to think that they can tell a fake, but these guys know Lugers, finishes, straw colors, stamps, and have this down to an art.

I once examined two K-date Lugers that had both scriptic and gothic S's on all the parts. Looked great. They had rounded barrel bands that did not come into use until 1936. These were new made barrels, even had the stepped front sight, with all the correct stamps, proof marks, and serial numbers. A total fake.

Johnny Peppers · 11-05-2001, 05:13 PM

BIG NORM,

Bill stated it very well, and as there was a discussion recently on this forum as to whether all 6" barreled Lugers with 100/200 meter rear sights were 1904's I referred to the 1904/04 and not the 1904/06 or the 1904/14. Virtually any advanced collector will tell you that the 04/04 is widely faked due to the extreme rarity and breath taking price. The post regarding the serial numbers of three fake 04/04's pretty well bears this out, as only a handful of the pistols are known and as Bill M stated, all have either been messed with or are out and out fakes. If you have any information to the contrary, I feel sure that the members of the forum would be interested in hearing it.

Big Norm · 11-05-2001, 09:29 PM

Johnny,

I have no information to the contrary on any Navy Luger. I can understand the recreation of an 04/04 because of their rarity and corresponding price. But to say that the 1916 & 1917 Navies are predominately fakes just sends shivers up and down my back. Where would anybody get the rear toogles from? I can not picture somebody with simple tools rigging something up in the garage. Maybe I am in denial because the Model 1914 Navy Luger has always been my favorite.

Once I had a 1917 that I knew was rebarreled. I showed it to another collector and noted to me the the checkering on the rear toogle was too perfect for that era of a Luger. He even put it under a microscope for me to see. Now I have a 1906 1st issue unaltered Navy Luger that I will have to take a very close look at. I am sure that, considering the condition of the gun (its old blue and honestly used), the barrel ring and the rear toogle checkering will be what they are supposed to be. Then I will have to look at my 1916 & 1917 excellent condition Navies and compare. Maybe I will also look at my not so excellent Model 1914's and see what they look like.

But, excluding the 04/04, I can not believe in my heart that they are predominately fakes as you say.

Big Norm

Johnny Peppers · 11-05-2001, 11:44 PM

If you will read my last post again, I tried to explain that I was referring to the 1904 variation. If I made it sound like the 1906 and 1914 variations were mostly fakes it is due to the misunderstanding of the three different variations and the assumptions made if we are to lump all variations under just one model number. If we were to revert back to calling all 4" military Lugers P08's without an explaination of just which one, there would be mass confusion in trying to figure out just which variation we were speaking of. A P08 can be a multitude of different variations, so why not just call them by a variation that everyone recognizes rather than try to be historically correct. The first variation to go would have to be the so called "Black Widow".

11-04-2001, 08:15 PM	#1
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Navy Luger Fakes Should any list member be contemplating putting down the $20K plus for an '04 Navy, please contact me first. I have ABSOLUTE PROOF of 3 SNs that are fake. Send me your "contemplated purchase" SN and I will let you know if it is one the "SHT LIST"... Due to the circumstances underwhich I obtained this info, I simply cannot reveal the SNs publicly, so DON'T ASK. Just trying to alert the list and maintain a very special* confidence...

11-04-2001, 10:20 PM	#2
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re: WE need more like Tom, Keep up the good work. (EOM)

11-04-2001, 10:22 PM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Navy Luger Fakes There are probably more fake 04's than real ones. This type of fake goes way beyond a refinish or a new set of serial numbers.

11-05-2001, 02:14 PM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Navy Luger Fakes Johnny, I have a hard time with your staement that there are as many fake navy Lugers as real ones. I can not challenge the statement, but it seems like you are painting with a wide paint brush. Could you expand on your statement? Where do these fakers get their rear sights from? As a collector of Navy Lugers, I would like to know just how you justify your statement? Now I am talking about Navies with 6 inch barrels and proper rear sights. Not military (4 inch barrels and army rear sights), which may have navy markings. Big Norm

11-05-2001, 03:11 PM	#5
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Navy Luger Fakes Norm, I think JP's comments were concerning the 1904 variation, but he can clarify that with you. I have never seen a 1904 that hadn't been messed with in some way. Still has a couple pictured in his book and comments that they were both messed with. I have been told that there is no such thing as a complete original as issued 1904 as all of them have been tinkered with at sometime, and some even contend that there was never even such a model. Who knows? As far as fake navy 6 inch Lugers go, there are a lot of total fakes out there, especially in the 1916 and 1917 dated variations. The rear site is either from a shooter, or is newly milled. They take a $400 1920 commercial, and install a new barrel, new rear site, remove the crown N proofs and Germany mark, add the C/M's and the serial number needed, put a date on it, refinish the blue, install the old strawed parts, make a matching magazine, and presto, a 1916 dated navy. Unless you know exactly what to look for, you will be fooled as these are extremely well made. $400 1920 becomes a $3200 prize navy. They will fool 99% of the collectors. People seem to think that they can tell a fake, but these guys know Lugers, finishes, straw colors, stamps, and have this down to an art. I once examined two K-date Lugers that had both scriptic and gothic S's on all the parts. Looked great. They had rounded barrel bands that did not come into use until 1936. These were new made barrels, even had the stepped front sight, with all the correct stamps, proof marks, and serial numbers. A total fake.

11-05-2001, 05:13 PM	#6
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Navy Luger Fakes BIG NORM, Bill stated it very well, and as there was a discussion recently on this forum as to whether all 6" barreled Lugers with 100/200 meter rear sights were 1904's I referred to the 1904/04 and not the 1904/06 or the 1904/14. Virtually any advanced collector will tell you that the 04/04 is widely faked due to the extreme rarity and breath taking price. The post regarding the serial numbers of three fake 04/04's pretty well bears this out, as only a handful of the pistols are known and as Bill M stated, all have either been messed with or are out and out fakes. If you have any information to the contrary, I feel sure that the members of the forum would be interested in hearing it.

11-05-2001, 09:29 PM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Navy Luger Fakes Johnny, I have no information to the contrary on any Navy Luger. I can understand the recreation of an 04/04 because of their rarity and corresponding price. But to say that the 1916 & 1917 Navies are predominately fakes just sends shivers up and down my back. Where would anybody get the rear toogles from? I can not picture somebody with simple tools rigging something up in the garage. Maybe I am in denial because the Model 1914 Navy Luger has always been my favorite. Once I had a 1917 that I knew was rebarreled. I showed it to another collector and noted to me the the checkering on the rear toogle was too perfect for that era of a Luger. He even put it under a microscope for me to see. Now I have a 1906 1st issue unaltered Navy Luger that I will have to take a very close look at. I am sure that, considering the condition of the gun (its old blue and honestly used), the barrel ring and the rear toogle checkering will be what they are supposed to be. Then I will have to look at my 1916 & 1917 excellent condition Navies and compare. Maybe I will also look at my not so excellent Model 1914's and see what they look like. But, excluding the 04/04, I can not believe in my heart that they are predominately fakes as you say. Big Norm

11-05-2001, 11:44 PM	#8
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Navy Luger Fakes If you will read my last post again, I tried to explain that I was referring to the 1904 variation. If I made it sound like the 1906 and 1914 variations were mostly fakes it is due to the misunderstanding of the three different variations and the assumptions made if we are to lump all variations under just one model number. If we were to revert back to calling all 4" military Lugers P08's without an explaination of just which one, there would be mass confusion in trying to figure out just which variation we were speaking of. A P08 can be a multitude of different variations, so why not just call them by a variation that everyone recognizes rather than try to be historically correct. The first variation to go would have to be the so called "Black Widow".