1943 43/5 markings?

StarOfTheWest · 01-22-2008, 01:08 PM

This one has me baffled.
Serial 2097 S (not scriptic S, but a capital S)
This is a reblued gun, with a chamber mark of 1943.
The toggle top mark is 43/5.
The gun was badly pitted and reblued with some severe buffing.
There seem to be gothic letters scattered around this gun as well, some with crowns, some without.
Kind of what you would expect on an Imperial era gun.
No eagles that I could see.
I can make out a Crown/RC on the right side of the breech block, the old Revisions Committee.
It looks like an Erfurt gun with a WW2 rework, and I don't recall that having happened.
Side plate shows no evidence of an Erfurt mark, just serial 97, but buffing was extensive and may have removed it.
Main toggle pin is marked 79, and seems to have a wider flange than usual.
Sear bar is mismatched at #70.
Barrel witness mark looks slightly off, but barrel numbers seem ok and appear to be of the same font as the lower frame.
Leads me to think maybe the barrel might have been removed for refinishing, but still might be the right one.

Any ideas?
SWAGs?
I can't come up with a reasonable explanation for this gun.
It seems to show WW1 and Weimar traits, but with WW2 dates?

Anyone seen anything like this before?
I know that with the mismatches, and the refinish, most of the collector value is kaput, but I am still curious about the top markings, as I have never heard of anything like them before.

John Sabato · 01-22-2008, 01:27 PM

Anna... the toggle top surfaces have been ground... missing the relief bevels on the side edges on the toggle links. Heavy polishing probably to reduce the severe pitting still seen on the inside of the upper receiver... it was probably all over the gun. Some pitting still visible in the rear toggle top surface under the bluing...

The "3" in the 1943 is not on line with the "194" so it may have been changed at some point...

The crown proofs seem to indicate an earlier gun... and not consistent with 1943 as the year of manufacture... also the gun doesn't have the Mauser "hump" on the toggle ears...

No way to know what the new marks mean... at least not to me... thanks again for your wonderful photos and sharing your collection.

StarOfTheWest · 01-22-2008, 01:30 PM

Thanks John.
I agree that the buffing has taken the surfaces down for a restamp, but I am hoping maybe someone has seen some similar marks out in the wild.
Thanks for looking.

Lugerdoc · 01-24-2008, 11:11 AM

Anna, With the Erfurt (Imperial) marked frame, trigger, rear toggle link, breech block, etc. I think it is safe to say that Erfurt was the original manufacturer of this PO8. What happened to it since, is anyone's guess, but I'm quite sure that it was not an offical or factory rework. TH

wdavid431 · 01-25-2008, 07:56 AM

I thought Lugers were last produced in 1942. Anything to this? Just wondering.

George Anderson · 01-25-2008, 08:18 AM

I think it was a past owner with limited skills at refinishing and a sense of humor.

01-22-2008, 01:08 PM	#1
StarOfTheWest User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: East Texas, CSA Posts: 208 Thanks: 81 Thanked 15 Times in 12 Posts	1943 43/5 markings? This one has me baffled. Serial 2097 S (not scriptic S, but a capital S) This is a reblued gun, with a chamber mark of 1943. The toggle top mark is 43/5. The gun was badly pitted and reblued with some severe buffing. There seem to be gothic letters scattered around this gun as well, some with crowns, some without. Kind of what you would expect on an Imperial era gun. No eagles that I could see. I can make out a Crown/RC on the right side of the breech block, the old Revisions Committee. It looks like an Erfurt gun with a WW2 rework, and I don't recall that having happened. Side plate shows no evidence of an Erfurt mark, just serial 97, but buffing was extensive and may have removed it. Main toggle pin is marked 79, and seems to have a wider flange than usual. Sear bar is mismatched at #70. Barrel witness mark looks slightly off, but barrel numbers seem ok and appear to be of the same font as the lower frame. Leads me to think maybe the barrel might have been removed for refinishing, but still might be the right one. Any ideas? SWAGs? I can't come up with a reasonable explanation for this gun. It seems to show WW1 and Weimar traits, but with WW2 dates? Anyone seen anything like this before? I know that with the mismatches, and the refinish, most of the collector value is kaput, but I am still curious about the top markings, as I have never heard of anything like them before. __________________ Sorry, I take that back. I have no problem with the horse you rode in on.

01-22-2008, 01:27 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Anna... the toggle top surfaces have been ground... missing the relief bevels on the side edges on the toggle links. Heavy polishing probably to reduce the severe pitting still seen on the inside of the upper receiver... it was probably all over the gun. Some pitting still visible in the rear toggle top surface under the bluing... The "3" in the 1943 is not on line with the "194" so it may have been changed at some point... The crown proofs seem to indicate an earlier gun... and not consistent with 1943 as the year of manufacture... also the gun doesn't have the Mauser "hump" on the toggle ears... No way to know what the new marks mean... at least not to me... thanks again for your wonderful photos and sharing your collection. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-22-2008, 01:30 PM	#3
StarOfTheWest User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: East Texas, CSA Posts: 208 Thanks: 81 Thanked 15 Times in 12 Posts	Thanks John. I agree that the buffing has taken the surfaces down for a restamp, but I am hoping maybe someone has seen some similar marks out in the wild. Thanks for looking. __________________ Sorry, I take that back. I have no problem with the horse you rode in on.

01-24-2008, 11:11 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Anna, With the Erfurt (Imperial) marked frame, trigger, rear toggle link, breech block, etc. I think it is safe to say that Erfurt was the original manufacturer of this PO8. What happened to it since, is anyone's guess, but I'm quite sure that it was not an offical or factory rework. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-25-2008, 07:56 AM	#5
wdavid431 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	I thought Lugers were last produced in 1942. Anything to this? Just wondering. __________________ W David

01-25-2008, 08:18 AM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I think it was a past owner with limited skills at refinishing and a sense of humor.