Mitchell "Presentation" Luger question

DaveinTN · 11-12-2006, 11:54 PM

I'm new to the forum and have a question.

I have a chance to buy a rebuilt 1916 DWM Mitchell "Presentation" Luger for just under $2,000. I checked on the Mitchell site and found they retail for $4,500. I guess they hold their value about as well as those collector's plates you see on Home Shopping Network.....

The pistol comes with the fancy box, medal and ribbon, and instruction booklet While I realize this gun has no value to a real collector, it would be an expensive, but very nice shooter.

I checked on the internet for any resales of Mitchell "Presentation" Lugers, but found none. No one I've asked has any experience with the values either.

Any thoughts or suggestions you can give me would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Dave in TN

tracyp · 11-13-2006, 12:26 AM

Dave,

I would say don't buy it. IMO these do not have any collector value. Mitchell is like the Franklin Mint of guns. They will never be worth anything. For $2K get a nich original Luger

Tracy

Edward Tinker · 11-13-2006, 12:34 AM

I agree with Tracy (hey Tracy, how ya doing man!).....

I wouldn't say totally worthless, but I would NEVER buy one. As an example, Colt made lots of WW1 and WW2 collector 1911A1's probably 25-35 years ago, their value is not much more than when they were made, but a 1911 Colt is worth probably 2x what it cost 25 years ago, if not more...

For a shooter, it would be smarter to buy a 1970's era Mauser luger, they go for around $1,000 to a bit more...

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 11-13-2006, 12:36 AM

Dave,

The Mitchell guns do not represent good value for the money, either as collector items or shooting guns. Objectively, their value is equavalent to any corresponding model which has been buffed and reblued (there is no way to know if the Mitchell guns are all-matching). Their cost new is at least seven times this value; the gun you have been offered is about three times overpriced.

--Dwight

c3006 · 11-14-2006, 07:07 AM

As allways Tac nails it.

pipeman45 · 11-14-2006, 05:36 PM

Eloquent as always Tac. and good advice too I might add.

DaveinTN · 11-14-2006, 07:15 PM

Many thanks to all of you who replied to my question. Every one of you echoed the little voice in the back of my head which kept repeating, "Don't do it.... Don't buy the gun.... " I called the seller and said I had changed my mind.

It looks like I'll be putting my money back under the mattress until the right opportunity presents itself.

Dave in TN

PS: I'm very impressed with the depth of knowledge available in this forum! I'll keep reading and learning.

DaveinTN · 11-14-2006, 07:29 PM

One other thing I forgot to mention....

It may already be somewhere here on the forum, but if not, here's how to get your own free copy of Georg Luger's 1904 patent on his Luger. The patent number is 753414 (admin, I changed the number for you and delted the other posting

.

Here's the link to the US Patent office

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm

Type in 753414 into the "query" box and then hit the search button.

When the next screen comes up, hit the "images" button and enjoy!

Dave in TN

DaveinTN · 11-14-2006, 07:30 PM

753414

micmacman · 11-23-2006, 09:47 PM

i know Mitchels K98's are a running joke,renumbered,sanded,and way over priced and to the informed collector nowhere near what they are asking

also some of their ethics have come in question as well,as before mentioned they restamp serials and claim "matching" guns,so the inexperianced collector may get baited in thinking their purchasing an authentic,true collectors piece

they also caught much flak in the community for selling Yugo M48 mausers as german K98's

i for one dont wish to deal with such for obvious reasons,even if purchasing one of their "collectors pieces" from anouther source,,,also they are taking honost examples and humping them up in turn devaluing a rifle that may have appreciated in value through time if simply left alone

purchasing one of their "reworks" from them or anyone else who sells their "collectors pieces" including Dunhams and like, only creates a market for them to perpetuate their hacking,grinding,re-serializing,and sand creating abominations out of historic firearms

i havnt had a drop of alcohol in many years,i will drink a beer when they close their doors

micmacman · 11-23-2006, 09:57 PM

i forgot to comment on the "presentation box" and the "certificate of authenticity"

the box is probably worth more than the weapon after they have worked their CREATIVE RESTORATION (putting it pleasantly) technics

the certificate wouldnt even be worth a trip to the head for the morning constitution,i equate it to taking a 1967 Mustang coop,slapping some paint on it,and print shopping a certificate of authenticity that its a genuine Shelby GT

micmacman · 11-23-2006, 10:50 PM

i had no idea Mitchels was attacking lugers as well as K98's,i am very,very new to lugers having only aquired my first a short couple weeks ago,and have since plopped some bread down on a Erfurt,im a sucker for German weapons

it truely hurts knowing that thier targeting of honost pieces didnt stop at K98's which in its own is like getting a brain freeze from a Frosty just to think about,,,does their sacrilege stop there or does it expand to P38's as well?

i knew i was opening pandora's box when i bought a P38,it didnt take long before i had set my sights on what i had always thought was a pipe dream of owning,a good honost example of a WWII Luger,now im already getting the WWI example behind me which didnt take much convincing myself of i must ad as well,,,,lol

John Sabato · 11-23-2006, 11:13 PM

In answer to your question about Mitchell's.. the answer is yes... they also deal in P.38's using the same methods... a real pity to prey on the unknowing and unsuspecting new collectors regarding the collectability of what they sell...

stymie · 11-24-2006, 11:23 PM

The odd thing is that their COAs are signed by John McGerty formerly a chief design engineer for Armalite/ Fairchild.

micmacman · 11-25-2006, 08:45 AM

its all about wording,and they have learned how to stretch the envelope in that department,if you had seen their earlier ads they were down right lies,but they must have gotton advice from someone on how to word their ads to imply certain things without actually stating thats what it "is",and the informed collector runs for the hills as soon as they hear their name,so one can only think they are targeting the new collector,and as fast as the hobby is growing there are plenty

ive seen posts of new collectors all exited about how proud they are of the investment they just made in a genuine WWII artifact to be passed down through the generations of their family only to find out its a Mitchels hack job,knowone wants to be the one to tell them,because others will acuse them of flaming the new collector and dumping on his new "heirloom"

i'll speak up in a situation like this and discuss it,but i dont comment anymore on those threads,,,,ive made some bad buys since ive started collecting as im sure has everyone,but you learn research is a great money saver and i learned that early on,luckily ive made some excellant scores that out weigh the bad buys a hundred fold

impulse buys,and purchases out of the rhelm of your personal knowledge are the ones that will reach up and bite you,but admittedly ive gone with my gut and have both won and lost,now i limit my gut feeling buys to a very nominal amount of dough,there are some situations like at gun shows you dont have time to run home log on and see if the piece is for real,but you do learn things from honost pieces that carry over to other types of weapons as to what to look for

ive learned so much about differant weapons from forums just like this one if only lurking and reading the posts,and google is a great friend as well

David Jackson · 12-07-2006, 02:34 AM

I have a nice AE safe/loaded cal .30 Luger for sale; check the Lugers for sale section on this forum if that sort of thing appeals to you at all. Germany on frame, with halo; Germany marked wood bottom mag. Made probably early '20s; 4 digit serial, K suffix.

David Jackson

Alx · 12-25-2006, 08:05 PM

I have seen a Mitchell's Mauser Luger in the box etc. at a Middle Tennessee dealer, have examined it closely. The dealer is a reputable one, and they have a Mitchell's P-38 also.
As for the Luger, I think it is the same one mentioned at the start of this thread. It is a mess of parts renumbered, and overstamped, and the whole thing looks parkerized. The metal under this evenly applied sooty black is roughly sanded and buffed. It is clean, and new looking like any Taurus would be. For less than half that price, they have sold me matching original finish Lugers that are functionally fine and original. I think they are stuck with these Mitchell's Mauser guns, but someday someone who wants the display may buy them.

DaveinTN · 12-27-2006, 10:33 PM

Alx,

Bingo! That's exactly the same pistol I started this topic on! Looked sweet to a novice like myself, but as you read above, I sure got set straight quick.

You're right about the dealer in Franklin, they have a good reputation and its a pleasure just to browse around their store.

Dave in TN.

11-12-2006, 11:54 PM	#1
DaveinTN User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 186 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	Mitchell "Presentation" Luger question I'm new to the forum and have a question. I have a chance to buy a rebuilt 1916 DWM Mitchell "Presentation" Luger for just under $2,000. I checked on the Mitchell site and found they retail for $4,500. I guess they hold their value about as well as those collector's plates you see on Home Shopping Network..... The pistol comes with the fancy box, medal and ribbon, and instruction booklet While I realize this gun has no value to a real collector, it would be an expensive, but very nice shooter. I checked on the internet for any resales of Mitchell "Presentation" Lugers, but found none. No one I've asked has any experience with the values either. Any thoughts or suggestions you can give me would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help, Dave in TN

11-14-2006, 07:07 AM	#5
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	As allways Tac nails it. __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

11-14-2006, 05:36 PM	#6
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Eloquent as always Tac. and good advice too I might add. __________________ Dave

11-23-2006, 09:47 PM	#10
micmacman User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i know Mitchels K98's are a running joke,renumbered,sanded,and way over priced and to the informed collector nowhere near what they are asking also some of their ethics have come in question as well,as before mentioned they restamp serials and claim "matching" guns,so the inexperianced collector may get baited in thinking their purchasing an authentic,true collectors piece they also caught much flak in the community for selling Yugo M48 mausers as german K98's i for one dont wish to deal with such for obvious reasons,even if purchasing one of their "collectors pieces" from anouther source,,,also they are taking honost examples and humping them up in turn devaluing a rifle that may have appreciated in value through time if simply left alone purchasing one of their "reworks" from them or anyone else who sells their "collectors pieces" including Dunhams and like, only creates a market for them to perpetuate their hacking,grinding,re-serializing,and sand creating abominations out of historic firearms i havnt had a drop of alcohol in many years,i will drink a beer when they close their doors __________________ NRA,give,and give often,,,they fight the good fight for all of us

11-23-2006, 09:57 PM	#11
micmacman User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i forgot to comment on the "presentation box" and the "certificate of authenticity" the box is probably worth more than the weapon after they have worked their CREATIVE RESTORATION (putting it pleasantly) technics the certificate wouldnt even be worth a trip to the head for the morning constitution,i equate it to taking a 1967 Mustang coop,slapping some paint on it,and print shopping a certificate of authenticity that its a genuine Shelby GT __________________ NRA,give,and give often,,,they fight the good fight for all of us

11-13-2006, 12:26 AM	#2
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Dave, I would say don't buy it. IMO these do not have any collector value. Mitchell is like the Franklin Mint of guns. They will never be worth anything. For $2K get a nich original Luger Tracy

11-13-2006, 12:34 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I agree with Tracy (hey Tracy, how ya doing man!)..... I wouldn't say totally worthless, but I would NEVER buy one. As an example, Colt made lots of WW1 and WW2 collector 1911A1's probably 25-35 years ago, their value is not much more than when they were made, but a 1911 Colt is worth probably 2x what it cost 25 years ago, if not more... For a shooter, it would be smarter to buy a 1970's era Mauser luger, they go for around $1,000 to a bit more... Ed

11-13-2006, 12:36 AM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Dave, The Mitchell guns do not represent good value for the money, either as collector items or shooting guns. Objectively, their value is equavalent to any corresponding model which has been buffed and reblued (there is no way to know if the Mitchell guns are all-matching). Their cost new is at least seven times this value; the gun you have been offered is about three times overpriced. --Dwight

11-14-2006, 07:15 PM	#7
DaveinTN User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 186 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	Many thanks to all of you who replied to my question. Every one of you echoed the little voice in the back of my head which kept repeating, "Don't do it.... Don't buy the gun.... " I called the seller and said I had changed my mind. It looks like I'll be putting my money back under the mattress until the right opportunity presents itself. Dave in TN PS: I'm very impressed with the depth of knowledge available in this forum! I'll keep reading and learning.

11-14-2006, 07:29 PM	#8
DaveinTN User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 186 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	One other thing I forgot to mention.... It may already be somewhere here on the forum, but if not, here's how to get your own free copy of Georg Luger's 1904 patent on his Luger. The patent number is 753414 (admin, I changed the number for you and delted the other posting . Here's the link to the US Patent office http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm Type in 753414 into the "query" box and then hit the search button. When the next screen comes up, hit the "images" button and enjoy! Dave in TN

11-14-2006, 07:30 PM	#9
DaveinTN User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 186 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	753414

11-23-2006, 10:50 PM	#12
micmacman User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i had no idea Mitchels was attacking lugers as well as K98's,i am very,very new to lugers having only aquired my first a short couple weeks ago,and have since plopped some bread down on a Erfurt,im a sucker for German weapons it truely hurts knowing that thier targeting of honost pieces didnt stop at K98's which in its own is like getting a brain freeze from a Frosty just to think about,,,does their sacrilege stop there or does it expand to P38's as well? i knew i was opening pandora's box when i bought a P38,it didnt take long before i had set my sights on what i had always thought was a pipe dream of owning,a good honost example of a WWII Luger,now im already getting the WWI example behind me which didnt take much convincing myself of i must ad as well,,,,lol __________________ NRA,give,and give often,,,they fight the good fight for all of us

11-23-2006, 11:13 PM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	In answer to your question about Mitchell's.. the answer is yes... they also deal in P.38's using the same methods... a real pity to prey on the unknowing and unsuspecting new collectors regarding the collectability of what they sell... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-24-2006, 11:23 PM	#14
stymie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KC,MO USA Posts: 114 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The odd thing is that their COAs are signed by John McGerty formerly a chief design engineer for Armalite/ Fairchild. __________________ "Irony can be pretty ironic!"

11-25-2006, 08:45 AM	#15
micmacman User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	its all about wording,and they have learned how to stretch the envelope in that department,if you had seen their earlier ads they were down right lies,but they must have gotton advice from someone on how to word their ads to imply certain things without actually stating thats what it "is",and the informed collector runs for the hills as soon as they hear their name,so one can only think they are targeting the new collector,and as fast as the hobby is growing there are plenty ive seen posts of new collectors all exited about how proud they are of the investment they just made in a genuine WWII artifact to be passed down through the generations of their family only to find out its a Mitchels hack job,knowone wants to be the one to tell them,because others will acuse them of flaming the new collector and dumping on his new "heirloom" i'll speak up in a situation like this and discuss it,but i dont comment anymore on those threads,,,,ive made some bad buys since ive started collecting as im sure has everyone,but you learn research is a great money saver and i learned that early on,luckily ive made some excellant scores that out weigh the bad buys a hundred fold impulse buys,and purchases out of the rhelm of your personal knowledge are the ones that will reach up and bite you,but admittedly ive gone with my gut and have both won and lost,now i limit my gut feeling buys to a very nominal amount of dough,there are some situations like at gun shows you dont have time to run home log on and see if the piece is for real,but you do learn things from honost pieces that carry over to other types of weapons as to what to look for ive learned so much about differant weapons from forums just like this one if only lurking and reading the posts,and google is a great friend as well __________________ NRA,give,and give often,,,they fight the good fight for all of us

12-07-2006, 02:34 AM	#16
David Jackson User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Magalia, California Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger to buy I have a nice AE safe/loaded cal .30 Luger for sale; check the Lugers for sale section on this forum if that sort of thing appeals to you at all. Germany on frame, with halo; Germany marked wood bottom mag. Made probably early '20s; 4 digit serial, K suffix. David Jackson __________________ Sincerely; David Jackson

12-25-2006, 08:05 PM	#17
Alx User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nashville, Tennessee area Posts: 263 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I have seen a Mitchell's Mauser Luger in the box etc. at a Middle Tennessee dealer, have examined it closely. The dealer is a reputable one, and they have a Mitchell's P-38 also. As for the Luger, I think it is the same one mentioned at the start of this thread. It is a mess of parts renumbered, and overstamped, and the whole thing looks parkerized. The metal under this evenly applied sooty black is roughly sanded and buffed. It is clean, and new looking like any Taurus would be. For less than half that price, they have sold me matching original finish Lugers that are functionally fine and original. I think they are stuck with these Mitchell's Mauser guns, but someday someone who wants the display may buy them.

12-27-2006, 10:33 PM	#18
DaveinTN User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 186 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	Alx, Bingo! That's exactly the same pistol I started this topic on! Looked sweet to a novice like myself, but as you read above, I sure got set straight quick. You're right about the dealer in Franklin, they have a good reputation and its a pleasure just to browse around their store. Dave in TN.