What is it? Commercial or Military?

[Ron Smith]

Has anyone ever seen a commercial "Lazy N" applied to the right side receiver and toggle links? Also serial numbered '5' in the military manner. Unknow whether suffixed or not. Undated with blank toggle. Any opinions, thoughts, etc.











Thanks, Ron

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, I will have to look, but I am pretty sure I have seen it on mine....


Will look today...

Ed

[policeluger]

Sure have Ron....

[Voelker]

East German Nitro proof mark?

[Ron Smith]

Hi Voelker,

I suppose it's possible. I have never seen the Crown / N stamped on the right side. The horizontal or "Lazy C/N" was dropped circa 1918 and replaced with the upright C/N on standard commercials.

Ron

[Voelker]

Some pistols which were not accepted by military clerk (some in principle insignificant errors like barrel made 1 mm too short) were sold to private market. So they can show military codes & serial numbers, but no military acceptance mark.

[LugerVern]

Ron

I have one marked with a Horizontal Crown N on the right side and military markings on the left, also at least one of my reference books states that it can appear on either side.
Do you have access to the gun for more pictures? Is that a crown N on the lower frame or the letter â??Zâ?�?
â??Zâ?� was used as a reject mark during the finial shooting inspectionâ??so if that is what it is, it would add to what Voelker has stated. The â??Zâ?� appears on my gun as well.


Vern

[Ron Smith]

Hi Vern,

All C/N marks.

Thanks...

Ron

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally posted by LugerVern
â??Zâ?� was used as a reject mark during the finial shooting inspection

Vern,

Do you have a source for this information?

--Dwight

[LugerVern]

Dwight:

Page 122 bottom left of German Small Arms Markings from authentic sources.

â??Pistols obviously out of aim will be marked "Z" by the officer after the third hit outside of the circle"

This reference is a pretty good one and highly recommended. For Imperial Lugers I tend to think of the â??Zâ?� stamp as a reject proof, after 1918 itâ??s anyoneâ??s guess.

I am still pretty new to collecting and tend to get hung up on the details listed in the references, not all are correct and I have been miss lead more than a few times, please let me know if you think I miss read this instruction.

Thanks

Vern

[LugerVern]

Ron

Pictures can really fool us sometimes, that sure looks like a "Z" to me below the C/N. Also look at the size of the proof, The "Z's" I am talking about are large stampings and that sure looks like one to me.

Your post however; so I trust you to know the gun.

Did you get a chance to look for a serial number suffix?


Vern

[Dwight Gruber]

Vern,

Thanks for the reference. I think the instruction itself is ambiguous. Although part you mention does say that "...pistols obviously out of aim will be marked Z...", the paragraphs which are referred to at the end of the instruction seem pretty clearly (to me) to refer to the targets and written records of the guns which are to be marked, not the guns themselves.

The only rejection stamp which marking instructions clearly refer to is A (Ausschuss, "rejected part" or "scrap"), see G�¶rtz&Bryans p.118. On p.114 there is an instruction which explicilty permits Z being used as a worker's mark. Having the same letter as a standard marking -and- as a rejection mark would seem to be very confusing.

You are right that G�¶rtz&Bryans is an extraordinary source book, I depend on it often.

--Dwight

[Dwight Gruber]

Ron,

When you originally asked me the question I was not aware that there was a c/N proof on the frame, below the one on the receiver. If that is indeed the case, it is more likely that this gun was proofed in Suhl, rather than Berlin.

--Dwight

[Ron Smith]

Vern and Dwight ,

It just looks like a C/N or a Z. It's just a scratch.

Ron

[LugerVern]

Ron

Well as usual I have opened Pandoraâ??s Box with my enthusiasm for the details; I apologize for clouding your post. I sometimes do audits for a big corporation and these things just jump out at me, I canâ??t help it.

With the box opened I would like to ask Dwight one question about â??Zâ??sâ?� and hopefully not put everyone to sleep.

As you stated â??Zâ??sâ?� would be used as worker marks, would the military officer in charge of the sighting in of the pistol been considered a â??workerâ?� or an â??official inspectorâ?�?
If considered a â??workerâ?� this would at least explain the hidden â??Zâ?� stampings on some guns.

You are correct about the â??Aâ?� reject stamp, but I feel this applies to parts and not to complete guns, otherwise we would have guns with the â??Aâ?� stamping, to the best of my limited knowledge this never appears ( except for a few Swiss guns not related to this topic). Also if you read paragraph 13 page 123 you will see that complete guns were never stamped â??Aâ?� but simply returned for repair until accepted, to me this explains why some pristine Lugers have had their barrels replaced ( double struck alignment marks). They simply got caught up in this never ending loop. It would be interesting research to see how many barrel replacements also have the hidden letter â??Zâ?� stamp. Something to look for when the subject of double struck alignment marks comes up.

Interesting gun Ron!

Thanks for indulging my obsession for details.

Vern

[Dwight Gruber]

Vern,

I think that calling the military officer in charge of sighting-in a "worker" is more of a stretch than the topic allows.

One of these Forums (it may be on Jan Still's Forum) has a profile of an Efrurt made up mostly of parts which are stamped A in place of the usual inspector's stamp, following the marking instructions.

On p.222 of Third Reich Lugers there is a photo of a Mauser S/42 stamped Ã??b ("Ã??bung", Test) over the chamber. It has a very large A stamped on the barrel, clearly suggestive of rejection of the entire pistol.

Fyi do a search on "witness marks" with my name attached.

--Dwight

[Ron Smith]

Vern,

I have to agree with Dwight. The Header for that section of G�¶rtz and Bryan's says "Conditions for Target sample". they are refering to how the target for a test fired pistol will be marked D,Z,or N. Indicating that the bullet strike pattern is acceptable or unacceptable for passing the pistol.

I see nothing stating that the pistol will be marked.

Even today, any German made firearm, Anschutz Rifles, H&Ks, etc. will have a test target in the box marked "passed" or something to that effect and signed by the inspector who fired it or a supervisor.

Ron

[Voelker]

Look here: http://www.rkraft.de/beschuss.htm