UPS Rant

[lew1]

C&R is a license to collect, not a license to engage in business. A dealer engages in business. So postal regs saying a licensed dealer would not mean a C&R.

Even if a gray area, do you want to be the one who spends 20/30 thousand in attorney fees?

[Ron Smith]

Charles,

That's not correct. You do not need a license to collect. You need a license to receive specified firearms directly from a seller or in trade. Or in some instances to transfer firearms.

Dealers trade, dealers buy for their own collections. dealers invest. The term dealer, does not mean specifically to engage in business.

[lew1]

Ron

True - if the firearms are purchased in the same state in which you reside. And it is true that a license is not needed to collect as long as you do it within the state of your residence.

But the trend of this string was the interstate shipment of firearms and that was the context in which my statements and the prior statements were being made. The interstate shipment and, for that matter, the intra state shipment by carriers such as UPS, FedEx, USPS is controlled by either federal law, federal regulation or the carriers rules. (Of course, you can always deiver the handgun yourself within the confines of the state in which you reside and you do not need a license for that. Likewise you can try to pursuade USPS to handle the shipment if the point of delivery is in the same state in which you reside if you do not have a license. )

Your definition of 'dealer' does not match what ATF considers to be a dealer so you are incorrect there.

[Ron Smith]

I don't understand your comment.

"if the firearms are purchased in the same state in which you reside."

I can own or collect as many firearms as I want without a license. The license simply allows me to legally receive 'specified" firearms from any state.


My whole point being. That USPS regulations and ATF regulations contradict. I have pointed this out to the Postal Inspectors. And have asked which reg. trumps the other. They can't tell me.

What it boils down to , is that the Postal Service regulation is a mis-interpuratation of the ATF regulation. Or if you wish, a simplification of the ATF regs. Merely meant to be a general guide for Postal Employees.

As I said, I was a T6 and Finance Tech. for nearly 20 years. For lack of a better word a "Foreman" refered to as a Lead Clerk. I oversaw 6 to 8 Window Clerks, advised them and translated the regulations for them. In constant contact with the district office to clarify the regulations. I was also a Window clerk trainer for about 10 of those years. I trained well over 100 Window Clerks for several offices within a 75 mile radius.

Window Clerks have to go through 40 hours of classroom training and 40 hours of OTJ training and then have to take a test before they are issued a till and can work a window unobserved. Even then their work is scrutinized continually until it is determined that they are doing things correctly.

I had a backlog of clerks to be trained at times, because I had a reputation for being the best trainer in the area. Many area Postmasters specified that they wanted me to train their clerks. I received 6 letters of commendation and 4 achivement awards for my knowledge and ability. We're not talking slinging burgers at Micky Ds. Window training is intense and not just anyone is capable of being a window clerk. Contrary to popular belief, it is very stressfull and retention of mountains of knowledge are required.

I'm not saying this to blow my own horn, but to assure you that I am not just pulling my knowledge and understanding of the regs. out of my a**.

I am not dictating to anyone. Just my point of view and what I do. If you want to use UPS, FedEX, DHL, or Oggies Dog Sled service, feel free. That is entirely your decision.

Have a good day...

Ron

[Chuckc]

I think I receintly got a memo from BATFE clearly stating that a C&R license does not allow the holder to engage in the shipping of a covered piece. The memo stated that C&Rs can receive shipments, but not send them as this would be construed to be selling, and therefore dealing. Anyone have a better take on this?

For the record, when I am sending a piece to a gunsmith, I declare it as antique parts.

[Ron Smith]

Case in Point: I am required to have an "Explosives" clearance from ATF to sell or ship Black Powder at the gun shop where I work. I received my clearance yesterday. I just now open the envelope. It belongs to a Ski Patrolman , Joseph Barklay, in Idaho. I wonder where mine is??

Ron

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by Ron Smith
What it boils down to , is that the Postal Service regulation is a mis-interpuratation of the ATF regulation. Or if you wish, a simplification of the ATF regs. Merely meant to be a general guide for Postal Employees.
Have a good day...

Ron

I have to agree with Ron, that the regulations are in disagreement. In one hand they say the word "dealer" and give a definition of dealer. Then in another area state that a dealer is anyone with a federal firearms license.

Further in another area it states a curios gun is an antique ...



So, in the gun collecting fraternitiy there is a huge disagreement on this issue. I would say, if you feel funny, then ship yours Next Day Air.

One thing to keep in mind, there are several types of next day air, one is before 10 AM, one is next day saver, etc., and the price diff is $20-$30...


Ed

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by Chuckc
I think I receintly got a memo from BATFE clearly stating that a C&R license does not allow the holder to engage in the shipping of a covered piece. The memo stated that C&Rs can receive shipments, but not send them as this would be construed to be selling, and therefore dealing. Anyone have a better take on this?

Chuck, what does this mean? Are you saying it specifically stated this for USPS or?

Because you HAVE to ship a pistol to another FFL you trade or sell it to upgrade your collection if you are a FFL 03...

You are stating it says a C&R can never ship something? That is against their own rules, it states you can ship an item???

Ed

[John Sabato]

I don't have my C&R Reference Package handy, but I think if anyone will take the time to research it, they will find that the C&R License allows you to RECEIVE eligible firearms in interstate commerce... I don't think any kind of license is required to SHIP a firearm... the law only states that the receiver be licensed to receive the shipment... ergo, you must be in possession of a valid copy of the RECIEVER's FFL or C&R License before you ship the item...

Case in point... I discover via the internet that one of the folks I regularly correspond with in another state has just inherited a Luger pistol that was brought back from WW2 by his uncle Fred... While he appreciates the gesture of his uncle, his wife refuses to have a firearm in the house. I offer to purchase the C&R Eligible pistol for market value and to not let it out of my sight as long as I am breathing. My correspondent agrees to the exchange of money for the Luger and I send him a wet-signed copy of my C&R License with a bill of sale and check... he then wraps the gun securely and uses an overnight service (of whatever choice) to send me the Luger which I promptly log into my ATFE required C&R collection logbook...

Have any laws been broken? Short answer: NO.

Comments on this fictional transaction are solicited from the peanut gallery Buffalo Bob...

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by John Sabato
...I send him a wet-signed copy of my C&R License with a bill of sale and check... Comments on this fictional transaction are solicited from the peanut gallery Buffalo Bob...

yes, it can be a faxed copy, and ergo, I would think a scanned in copy, e-mailed.

As it must be "legible", so to me, a scaned in copy is much more legible than a faxed one and once printed, hard to tell from a faxed one?

ed

[Chuckc]

I dug out the letter from BATFE. It defined "Engage in the business" as buying and selling C&Rs. The term was further defined as "a person or entity that devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms."

I would read that to mean I can ship a piece to another C&R holder, as long as I don't do it on a regualr (repetitive) basis with the purpose of making a profit.

There is an Authorization clarification near the end of the memo:

"Licensed Collectors are authorized to:

* Acquire curios and relics at any location.

* Dispose of curios and relics to an FFL, or a non-licensee residing in the same State, who is not otherwise prohibited by the CGA, and to an FFL in any state."

Again, I would read this as a C&R is a FFL since they did not clarify as an 01.

My memory was faulty in thinking I could not ship to a C&R. I can ship to another FFL. I can't ship to another state if the person is NOT in posession of an FFL, but they could ship to me if I provide them a copy of my C&R.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. The memo is question was dated January 5, 2005.

PS. There was no mention of UPS, USPS, or any other shipping company.