byf41 655&135 both proofs

[tickkk]

have a nice vet bring back luger with 655,135 then nazi eagle on reciever.another tiny eagle and another 135 mark on barrel.black plastic grip and mag bottom,matching numbers.anyone know how many produced with both proofs?i was told only they were only made for a day or two.came back with 1939 c.heinichen,dresden,large nazi eaglewaa706 between belt loops.would this year of holster have been issued with this luger?

[Bryon]

It sounds a lot like mine. From what I have read here the 655/135 marked 08s are more uncommon for this the byf41. Can you post a picture? Here is mine, After market mag, original grips. Sounds like a nice one.

[Bryon]

If you wait a few hours I am sure some of the experts on this forum can help you out if you can provide more info on the pistol.

[RockinWR]

Tickkk/Bryon,
* Same question was asked by member #868(Pelorat) about 6 weeks ago.
* Do a search with "byf" as a key word AND member# "868". Just the info you're looking for can be "essentially" found. No one knows exactly how many 'cause the byf'42's, regular double s/eagle 655 byf'41's and maybe even a double s/E135 byf'41 (also unusual) were all being made together in this transitional no suffix block.
* Maybe sporatically within the month of Jan.,'42 would be more accurate.
* Still a Rare gun. What are the serial#'s you two??
* Mine is 6345_, a nicely re-finished VOPO with a sweet trigger. DDR style matched mag.
* A 1939 PT.08 would be remotely possible; but, usually leather is within a year of the chamber date. This suggests 1940-'41-'42 for the normally accompanying leather. Think bell curve distribution over '41. Yours probably would have had a '41 or '42 holster. Keep in mind the Russian campaign had started on 6/41 and most any '39 leather would have been diverted east. Still, a supply depot may have reached way back into the far corner and came up with an oldie. But, I wouldn't worry about this detail as anything during war was possible.
Respectfully,
WR

[tickkk]

thanks for your replys, the serial no.is 5816. the finish is a dark blue almost black, i believe the mag is original, black base with blued body marked fxo eagle 37 and P08 on right side.
the grips look original too being a black plastic type material. has an excellent shiny bore, behind the safety is the word gesichert with off white coloring in stamping. is this coloring factory or something a colector has put there. the finish looks original with 95% remaining and wear consistant from being taken in and out of holster. holster is excellent condition, is this what is called a black widow? would anyone have an idea as to the value? its a wonder the grips and mag are not cracked or chipped after 60+ years as they look kind of fragile.
any info would be helpfull.

[Edward Tinker]

This can be called a Black Widow, on your left under the Technical Section, provided you came into www.lugerforum.com is a lot of information, to include the FAQ. This is from the area of the "Black Widow":

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Q: What is a "Black Widow" Luger?
A: Typically a 41 or a 42 dated chamber Mauser, toggle coded "byf" with black plastic grips (on about 20% of them). This was simply a marketing tactic employed, and the phase was coined by Ralph Shattuck (he tells me). It really worked. These guns have a black salt blued finish, black grips, and all blued (black color) small parts (trigger, safety lever and take down lever). Some of the 1940 vintage (a very few), and 41/42 Lugers had them also, but primiarly the "byf" with black grips are a "Black Widow". This was an American invention, and had no German basis at all! German collectors say "Huh?" sometimes, when you mention the term! Shown below is an example of a "Black Widow". Thor </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The wording Geischert is one of the few things that was factory colored, to let the user know if it was on fire or safe.

Ed

[tickkk]

the picture you posted of byf41 looks like a nice one.i did not purchase my byf41 directly from vet but was told it came back with holster,so i have no way of knowing for sure.the markings on mag are on the left side not right.ser.no.is 4 didget with last two didgets on small parts.looks to have been fired very little if at all.i have had this pistol for about 8 years and paid 750.00 then.i hope it has increased in value a little.yours respectfully T

[Pete Ebbink]

Going on memory here...but didn't some of our Mauser experts, last year, indicate, the use of BW grips are not proper until the byf gun is in the "u" block ?

I am hoping Frank Manders and/or others might reply to this...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Frank]

Pete, your memory is pretty good. I think the general concensus is somewhere around the middle of 1941. This would make the serial number about the 5000t range or so.

[tickkk]

if i understand this correctly your saying mauser passed the z block and started a no letter block in late 41?i was told that around 4000 byf41s were made with the dual 135 proofs at end of 41.i have seen quite a few of those over the years, but only 2 including mine of the dual proofed guns untill this forum.are the black grips proper for my ser.no 5816 no letter?to me it makes more sense that it was made just prior to the 4000 dual 135 proofed ones,makeing it around nov.,dec41.the other dual proofed gun i saw for sale ser. no.7xxx no letter,thats over 1000 difference between mine and his.but i dont think you can go by that in determining how many were made,can you?compared to the dual 655 and dual 135 proofed ones they are rare as hens teeth!anyway thats why i joined the forum to learn more about my luger. thanks for your time.

[Bryon]

My 08 pictured about is discribed as:

All part numbers match on pistol except mag.

41 Byf
Serial # 6729

Right side of barrel: Eagle/swastika

Left side of toggle: Eagle/swastika

Right frame: Eagle/655 Eagle/135 Eagle/swastika

Front of frame: no prefix letter.

At some point in it's life a prior owner had it re-blued <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />

Oh well great piece of history!!

[RockinWR]

Tickkk/Bryon,
* Thanks for your S/N's above.
* Yes, the byf'41's started sporadically in the "n" block, went thru the "z" block, continued sporadically into the no suffix block, and (I'm told) ended @ about 1000b. Please notice the black plastic grips/black plastic fxo mags were being used more frequently in the ns block and beyond as the supply of wood grip/Al base mags were dwindling.
* How many mixed WaA examples?? Don't know yet! Too few reported. Have the no suffix block starting with S/N 597_ ... a BYF'42 w/ dual sE135's!! When Tickkk saw 7xxx_ (above) and if it isn't 7063_, then my dBase knows of 9 examples between 4801_ to 8849_ including the 3 in this post. Coupled with the byf'41's with dual sE655's, byf'41's with dual sE135's, and byf'42's with dual sE135's being produced contemporarily, the transition quantity of any one style is too cloudy to estimate with any assurity due to the lack of reported examples.
* Tickkk: please report 7xxx_ when/if you examine it again. Please also note its Inside sideplate number, mag type, and grip type.
* Tickkk & Bryon: What are the #'s inside the sideplate of your respective examples?? The database tells me it's hungry & I got to feed it good numbers before it will be meaningful. BTW, mine is 64...one digit higher than the first 2 digits of my gun's S/N 6345_.
Thanks,
WR

[Pelorat]

The inside sideplate # on mine is 97, also one higher than the first two digits of my serial (9617_)

At first I thought it might have been the first and last digits, but that appears to be a coincidence.

[Frank]

Bob,

Don Hallock has reported a mixed waffenamt byf 41 at 8924_ just higher than your high. His low was the same as your data.

[tickkk]

thanks for input everyone, I never saw the dual proofed ser.no.7xxx but get a military collector firearm list it was in. I called the dealer about the rest of ser.no.,he said gun was on hold in the safe and did not have access. he thought was in mid 7000 range, sorry not good enough for your documentation. his example has black grips and black fxo mag. here is an excerpt(it is in the no letter ser.no. range/block which puts it in the latter part of 1941 as the serial numbers in very late 1941 ran from only 1000 to 001a.)does that make any sense? my side plate is numbered 59 inside. anyway he says this variation will be found in extremely small numbers. his is 95% original finish, about ex. bore, minty grips, mag has hairline crack, with vg jkh41 holster. better hang on to yours guys as he priced his at 2695. and said another one sold recently at auction for 2900

[Navystv]

RockinWR, for your DB, my byf 41 has s/n 1121 b, dual SE 135 and black plastic grips (originals? sure are in bachelite). What's "number inside the sideplate"?

[Silvereagle29]

6345 with the no suffix letter has broken the code. The normal 41-byf was a 655 655 accepted Luger during the n, o, p, q, r, s, t, u, v, w, x, y, and z blocks. The transition to inspector number 135 appeared in the no suffix block (near January 1942) Consequently, 655 135 and finally 135 135. The 41-byf ended in the - b - block although 96% of this block was the 42 date Lugers. Yes, these transition pistols are a great addition to any collection. Try and hunt down a 655 655 and a 135 135 pistol to make your 41-byf collection complete. Black plastic grips are nice after the - q - or later block. Beware of "BLACK WIDOWS" with black plastic grips before this suffix letter. Could be WaA USA enhancing a Luger to the "BLACK WIDOW" status in order to generate "a few dollars more". Same with the black plastic magazine bottoms. June of 1941, about the - q - or later suffix. No, a 41 42 or 1940-42 with black plastic grips is not correct. Brown plastic on a 1940-42 yes. Someone mentioned the - u - block of the 41-byf Lugers as a thought on 655 135 acceptance marked pistols, to early. The - u - block pertains to magazine numbering. Mauser severly curtailed the numbering of Luger magazines after the - u - block. Good thought to keep in mind when you find a 41-byf or 42-byf with two matching magazines. If you have a bunch of spare magazines, I need the numbers for my next mailing list. If your magazine doesn't match your pistol, maybe someone else is looking for that specific magazine. email me for the directions. Thanks

[Silvereagle29]

I would appreciate all the information you guys have on "no suffix" 655 135 pistols. Also if your a Mauser collector I'm always hunting for Mauser Military or Banner Luger serial number, suffix and acceptance mark information. I'll certainly share my data base with you guys if you will help me put the information into the data base. Thanks email me
Don
PS
Acceptance marks are the first two marks on the right side of the receiver on Military pistols. The Test proof is the third mark on the right side of the receiver. The test proof is also found on the barrel and the breech breech block. Just trying to get myself trained.

[Silvereagle29]

One more thought. You guys reported 6345, 5816, 6729 and 9617 as 655 135 accepted Lugers. Would you also include the following information for my research?
1. barrel number and size.
2. Grips, wood are they numbered or black plastic.
3. Number inside of the sideplate.
Thanks
Don
Any other data would be most appreciated.

[Pelorat]

Whoops, be aware that mine is a double 135 (think it got referenced here for the other features of the 41 byf), but just in case the info is still wanted:

Barrel: 4" (will get exact measure if you want that), serial 9617, land diameter 8,83
Grips: wood, each stamped 17 + E/swastika (WaA?)
Sideplate: 97 inside, 17 outside