1908 1st Military Issue - Characteristics...how to know

[siegersallee]

Hi all,

It has been a while since I have been on the board; but, my interest in lugers has been re-invigorated and I have a question that I cannot find a conclusive answer to.

Basically, what makes a luger a "1st Issue 1908 Military" vs "Early Issue 1908 Military".

Now specifically, I am referring to 1908 and 1909 Lugers from DWM manufactured for the German Army.

Characteristics of Both per original manufacture:

1- No Hold Open
2- No Shoulder Lug
3- No date on the Chamber
4- Military acceptance proofs on the left hand side
5- Commercial style serial on underside of side plate
6- No barrel/bore gauge marks under the barrel
7- Serial Number along the tail of the magazine.

These traits seem valid.

I have read that "1st Issue" were in the serial number range 34 - 4828b and that "Early Issue" were those lugers from late 1908 - 1909 with all the above traits but with serial numbers greater than 4828b.


Would others comment as to what makes a luger a "1st Issue" vs an "Early Issue" ?
If you are wondering what I am talking about, on the Simpson Website they have "Military 1908" and "1st Issue Military 1908".
I have started trying to understand what is the difference ?


Of course by 1910, 1908 Military Lugers were chamber dated. So they are all outside of this question.

Happy 4th of July

Richard

[Dwight Gruber]

"First Issue/Early Issue" is really a non-issue. The German production contract with DWM was not finalized until Dec, 3, 1908; and according to Sturgess the first delivery did not occur until March 1909.

So, if you really wanted to differentiate, "first issue" would be the undated 1909 deliveries, with characteristics as described above. Everything after that would be dated.

--Dwight

[kurusu]

I will add that most of them had the holdopen added just before the war started. The tell tale is the visible pin on the right side and a proof mark over it.

[siegersallee]

Hi Dwight,

Like you said, the contract was for 50,000 pistols in total.
The first batch of 3,000 to be delivered by 31 March 1909.
The rest, no later than 31 March 1911.

From Sturgess (electronic version) page 323:

Chapter 4 - The DWM Contract

6. Deadlines for Delivery

Delivery has to be made in such a way that 3,000 pistols with one spare magazine and one screwdriver apiece, plus the prescribed number of cleaning rods - namely one cleaning rod for every six pistols - will have been received by the Spandau Artillery Depot or by the Spandau Rifle Factory not later than 31 March 1909.

Delivery of the remainder of the pistols, cleaning rods and screwdrivers is to be spread over the fiscal years 1909 and 1910 in such a way that an average of two thousand pistols and spare magazines, screwdrivers and the requisite quantity of cleaning rods is delivered per month. the total order is to be fulfilled by 31 March 1911 at the latest.


Richard

[siegersallee]

Hi Dwight,

I was just checking out Jan Still's Imperial Lugers and found on page 20 that there is a reference to 1908 First Issue as being the 1st installment of about 25000 lugers, per the DWM contract of 50,000, in the serial number range 34 - 4828b.

This seems to jive with what I had been told in my first post.

However, unless I have screwed up the math, the S/N range of 34 - 4828b only comes in around 14450...so that may well be what is considered the "1st Issue 1908 Military".

Richard

[RichSr]

34 - 9999 = 9965
1a -9999a = 9998
1b -4828b = 4827
_____
Total 24,790
At least that's how I would figure it.
Though I didn't think long and hard at it.

[DonVoigt]

You know the serial numbers are those reported- I'm sure they started at 1 no suffix, so you can add another 33 for that.
and no reason to think that the "b"s don't go to 5000.

So there is your 25000.

Though I really believe the "1st issue" business is all collector speak anyway.

Is what you are looking for an undated DWM with the acceptance proofing on the left side?

[RichSr]

Maybe I'm missing something but wouldn't moving into the "C" block bring the total to over 3,000?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by RichSr

Maybe I'm missing something but wouldn't moving into the "C" block bring the total to over 3,000?

Sorry,
meant "b" , typed "c".

[siegersallee]

Though I really believe the "1st issue" business is all collector speak anyway.

Is what you are looking for an undated DWM with the acceptance proofing on the left side?

Don,
In my first post, I noted that this question arose in my mind owing to looking at the Simpson site and seeing some Lugers, with the characteristics described in my first post, being labeled as "1st 1908 Military Issue" and others as just "1908 Military Issue".

I can say that from everyone's comments and Sturgess and Still that the "1st 1908 Military Issue" was the first batch of 25K Lugers of the DWM contract for 50K that was completed by 1910.

What distinguishes "1st Issue" 1908 Lugers from the "1908 Military Issue" is the SN range. That seems to be the gist of it.


Richard

[DonVoigt]

Richard,
trying to parse the descriptions on Simpson's is frustrating, I am sure that the difference between:

" labeled as "1st 1908 Military Issue" and others as just "1908 Military Issue"."; is simply the guy that wrote the description.

As you point out, if you slice the deliveries, the serial number tells which ones were delivered when.

[cirelaw]

The complete my 1908 navy and commercial I asked George Anderson to find me a nice 1908 Military> Here is a 1908 which is Infantry Regiment 172, 11thth Company, Weapon 3.

[DonVoigt]

That is a nice one for sure, Eric.

[cirelaw]

Uncle George has one heck of an inventory! Here is a 1908 Commercial