Collector vs. Shooter

[Elapid]

I searched the site and never found exactly where do you draw the line between a Collector and a Shooter P08? Not sure where mine stands as I got a deal on it because it had some problems that are getting fixed. Would matching numbers, not magazine, and approximately 95% finish just holster wear be a shooter? I would post pictures but currently only have my phone to take one and I don't think you could tell that much by the picture. Just your general line between the two.

Edit to add: a 1938

[alvin]

In US context, collectible 1938 S/42 Luger is something like this: all original finish 90% or higher, all matching numbers, matching magazine preferred but not a must, nice bore, mechanically excellent, no eye-catching issue (e.g., 10% finish lost was all concentrated in one area). So simple.

[mrerick]

Here's my relatively inexperienced take on this:

A collectible Luger is one that is as close as possible to the original factory state. It is valued for both it's mechanical and appearance aspects being exactly what the factory made.

Starting from original factory state, it's condition (and value) descends. It's valuation is based upon demand, rarity and honest condition.

Some things remove a Luger from being considered collectible. On a more common Luger, a mismatched part (ranging from things where the numbers are quite hidden, through entire sub-assemblies) can do this. Finish wear expressed as an original finish percentage below 85% or so... Pitting and other exterior damage... On most Lugers, refinishing - especially incorrectly... (note that Swiss Lugers were typically refinished during arsenal reworking and this generally doesn't make them non-collectible); Import marking - although this is changing for more rare or unusual original Lugers that have subtle markings...

Non authentic markings or attempts to "boost" a Luger generally eliminate it from collector interest.

Matching magazines, being unusual, increase the value of a collectible Luger.

Everything else that functions properly would be valued as a shooter. Things that don't shoot properly would be parts...

[DavidJayUden]

Not so simple. At least not usually. The most commonly accepted basics are original finish and matching numbers. But the lines get blurry on the rarer models. Who would turn up their noses at a nice K date with a mismatched hold-open? Some might, but certainly not me.
A lot depends on your passion and financial means to support your collecting habit.
Even the serious collectors on this forum will probably admit to changing their focus and their standards along the way.
Just my $.02.
dju

[alvin]

Initially, new collector should not jump onto a K date with mismatched hold-open. That's for advanced collectors.

[4 Scale]

My answer is similar to dju's, I mostly agree but think in some cases one or more of the smaller parts may not match and the pistol is still collectible if it is in otherwise good shape. I think the pistol described in post #1 is collectible.

In my opinion, a collectable pistol valued at $2,000 or less may be shootable. I realize some will disagree so here is my logic:

1. Breakage of a major part may reduce the value of a collectible by 1/2.
2. Luger shooters tend to cost around $1,000 give or take.
3. Therefore pistols with a value of $2,000 or less (2X shooter cost) may be shot if it saves the cost of buying a separate shooter.

I realize this is a financial argument and ignores subjective arguments against shooting collectibles, such as having a duty to preserve history. I think it's a case by case matter. A middle ground may exist if parts that are most like to be damaged (left grip, firing pin, extractor, maybe the toggle) are removed and non-matching parts substituted on matching collectibles.

I offer this for discussion only, not trying to convert anyone.

[P08Leder]

They are all shooters,
if they aren't,
they aren't collectible.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by alvin

Initially, new collector should not jump onto a K date with mismatched hold-open. That's for advanced collectors.

Why not?

[Edward Tinker]

Collectible = whatever you want - however, to me, a collectable is matching (not mag) and depending on model from 70% plus - I have always considered anything 92% what I want, I do grade fairly hard

Shooter - reblue ( unless restored professionally )
shooter - mismatched
shooter - pitted - banged - damaged someway

But, in my opinion, it depends on the collector...

[DonVoigt]

As has been said,
If I "want" it, it is ok- I'll figure out what to call it later!

Shooter:
Generally Ed is close to what I'd say about a shooter.

Collectibles for me fall into two categories;

Representative: high % finish(could be period re-finished as may police lugers), matching(the mag is a +), no explanations required

Historic: variable finish, maybe re-finish, perhaps minor mis-match, but historic for some reason- scarcity, markings, etc.

Other:
Then there is the "zwitter" category, neither fish nor fowl; semi-collectible.
Could be a nice other wise collectible with a wart, like a bad finish spot, or a mis-matched major part. Or no finish, or pitted with cool markings, on and on. Could be called a historic shooter!

Others will develop their own system of justification and classification.

[alvin]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Why not?

First, K with mismatched hold-open probably is not very cheap. Second, it's relatively harder to appreciate due to the mismatched small parts. Third, it's harder to study due to its small volume so it will take longer to figure out its correctness besides that mismatched hold open. Fourth, beside marking difference, there is not much other major difference from G, 1936 etc. The list could go on and on.

But after collecting some collector grade Mauser Lugers, missing a K on the table, adding a K is a sensible choice. By that time, you already know this type of gun well, probably have bought and sold a bunch of them and know its price structure, and will appreciate some split-hair difference existing on K, and accept the mismatched hold open due to K's rarity.

[Sergio Natali]

In my opinion:

COLLECTIBLE is only a vintage and reasonably rare all original and matching piece, I mean "original" not only a "correct" one.

SHOOTER GRADE is a gun neither scarce nor all original, but accurate enough and suited for a safe use at the range.

Contrary to what some people are saying I think that pistols that are not collectile are not necessarily shooters.

My 2 cents.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

In my opinion:

COLLECTIBLE is only a vintage and reasonably rare all original and matching piece, I mean "original" not only a "correct" one.

SHOOTER GRADE is a gun neither scarce nor all original, but accurate enough and suited for a safe use at the range.

Contrary to what some people are saying I think that pistols that are not collectile are not necessarily shooters.

My 2 cents.

Totally agree. And also add that a shooter grade should preferably be a late Mauser.
But that's mainly because I use them in competition and practice, so they get to shoot a lot.

[alvin]

Starting from collector, going shooter, that's super easy. Just control the price, that's it. Starting from shooter, going collector, that's a fresh start. If the path is shooter -> collector -> back to shooter -> back to collector?? Then, collector phase II should play at relatively higher level than phase I. Hopefully.

[Norme]

Originally Posted by alvin

Starting from collector, going shooter, that's super easy. Just control the price, that's it. Starting from shooter, going collector, that's a fresh start. If the path is shooter -> collector -> back to shooter -> back to collector?? Then, collector phase II should play at relatively higher level than phase I. Hopefully.

Huh?

[alvin]

Originally Posted by Norme

Huh?

Never mind. Concept mixed. Collector could refer to a gun and to a person playing guns. Same for shooter. In this context, it's the latter.

[Arizona Slim]

I believe that all the opinions posted above have merit however, I also think that Ed's hit the nail on the head perfectly, especially the last sentence in his post " But, in my opinion, it depends on the collector". Exactly the way I feel.

Lon

[Don M]

Originally Posted by Arizona Slim

I believe that all the opinions posted above have merit however, I also think that Ed's hit the nail on the head perfectly, especially the last sentence in his post " But, in my opinion, it depends on the collector". Exactly the way I feel.

Lon

I agree. I am a collector who values the history evident on the pistol (i.e., evidence of what happened to the gun after it left the factory). I consider many old warhorses to be "collectible." However, I am very much in the minority.

[zinfull]

My version on collectible is a lot lower than most on this board. Most shooters to me range from beat up mixed match to buffed import marked. A matched Luger in good condition is a collectible, also I have a soft spot for the chrome bring backs and the end of the war factory trophies.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Don M

I agree. I am a collector who values the history evident on the pistol (i.e., evidence of what happened to the gun after it left the factory). I consider many old warhorses to be "collectible." However, I am very much in the minority.

Don,
You are in a minority of at least two!