Need help with 2 pistols

[Dave Sanders]

I have a neighbor who has two pistols and I really don't know much if any about them. One is a WeblyMark VI and the other is a Swedish Huskvarna 9mm. The Swedish one was brought back from WWII by his dad,according to him. I looked on Gunbroker and saw the Webly at around $700 and the Swedish from $700 to $1200. I guess I have few questions if any of you know some about these guns.
1. Would be are these two guns worth that kind of money?
2. There is a patent date on the Webly of 1918. Was it used for many years and how could one find out when it was made for sure if they were made for many years.
3. Was the swedish gun used by the Nazis or their allies to any degree?
4. Is either gun an in demand collector gun and if so, what would be a realistic value for these guns.
5. How could I find out for sure when the Swedish gun was made?
Thanks in advance for any help you may give me in these questions.
Dave

[Dave Sanders]

The Swedish pistol. It does have all the pars with the holster. It also has made in Sweden on the flap of the holster. Does that mean post war era?
Dave

[Edward Tinker]

The Webly in this shape AND still in original 455 is worth $500 to $700 - there is collector interest, I would be interested for my personal collection, if modified to 45 app, half that?

The Lahti is worth about the same, as a full rig, I've only been able to get $600-$800 / as a complete rig

There is a website that lists them by sn and approx dates if I remember, I am on my iPad, so can see as we'll. do a google search of huskavarna or Lahti

Any storyboard a bring back Dave for me?

Ed

[Olle]

The 9mm is a Swedish M/40, exported to Denmark for police use. The Danish designation for this is M/40S, they had a "D" prefix serial number and the Danish proof mark "HV" (Haerens Vapenarsenal) and the one in the picture is also in the known serial number range for these guns. Sometimes you'll see them with a large property stamp saying “Rigspoliti” or "Rplt. S".

I don't know when they were exported, but it's possible that some fell into the hands of the nazis occupying Denmark. I don't believe the "Sweden" stamp belongs there though, none of the guns I have seen in Sweden have had this. Some guns were assembled in Denmark and stamped "Made in Sweden" or just "Sweden", but these would have a "VP" prefix, instead of the "D". I have found the same, large font "SWEDEN" stamp on every M/40 I have seen in the US, same font, same place etc, so I suspect that it's actually an American import stamp. This would make more sense than the bringback story.

I would agree with Dave's appraisal, $500-$700 for nice rigs, maybe $800 for a mint one on a very good day. These pistols are fairly easy to find, and there's really not much collector interest in them either. Some people are asking $1,000 and up (one has been floating around at the local gun shows for years) but I have never seen one actually selling for that amount.

Anyway, it's a nice pistol and it would sure look good in my budding collection of Swedish guns...

[Dave Sanders]

Thanks so much for the info. That helps a great deal. I haven't talked to the owner much about the bring back story yet, so when I do, I'll let you know, Ed. Thanks again. Bt the way, what caliber should the Webly be and how would one know if it has been modified to a 45, put a 45 bullet and see if it fits?
Dave

[Patronen]

I'm not an expert on the lahti by any means and don't own one but remember reading somewhere that these guns have an accelerator which aids in cold weather functioning and that some frames or parts? have cracked as a result. Maybe someone else can shed more light on to that.

[Edward Tinker]

the 455 should be the original round / to make the 45 acp work, the cylinder has to be ground down or the rear of the face behind the cylinder

[Olle]

Originally Posted by Patronen

I'm not an expert on the lahti by any means and don't own one but remember reading somewhere that these guns have an accelerator which aids in cold weather functioning and that some frames or parts? have cracked as a result. Maybe someone else can shed more light on to that.

I don't believe the Swedish version has that feature. There is a common problem with cracking in these pistols though, and the main reason is said to be that many of them have been shot with the M/39B submachine gun ammo. This round is very common as surplus in Scandinavia, but it has a heavy jacket that builds more pressure than the pistol was intended for. The cracking problem is the reason why the M/40 was taken out of service, and temporarily replaced with the older M/07 until the Pistol 88 was adopted.

[DavidJayUden]

The Webley does not appear to have been "shaved" for .45 ACP use, which makes it very expensive to shoot but it does help its collector value considerably.
The Lahtis are interesting guns. Very well made in the "old world" tradition from solid steel. Probably the biggest and heaviest single stack 9mm I have ever fired.
Nice guns, both of interest to collectors, although smaller groups of collectors than there are for, for example, Lugers or GI .45's.
dju

[Dave Sanders]

Thanks to all. I'll post some pictures of the Webly in the cylinder area tonight and perhaps you can tell if it has been ground. It doesn't looked touched that I can see. So what era is the Webly, post WWI to? and the Swedish pistol 1942 to ?
Dave

[Olle]

Dave,

Don't quote me on this, but I believe the production of the M/40 pistols ceased in 1945. Supposedly, there were some pistols put together from spare parts after that, but I don't really know when or how many.

[Dave Sanders]

Ed, here is a shot of the Webly with a 45 cal bullet in it. It goes in deep, so I guess that means it hasn't been modified, right?
Dave

[GySgt1811]

Actually the .455 Brit was a rimmed round; the cartridge headspaces on the rim like a .45 Long Colt. There is/was a rimmed .45 ACP made at one time so as to fit in an unaltered Webley chamber. I don't know if anyone still makes it. Normally, to fire a .45 ACP in a ,455 Webley a machinist will remove the cylinder from the frame and turn off an small amount from the rear face of the cylinder so as to allow for half or full moon clips to clear the recoil shield of the revolver; then, .45 ACP's can be inserted into the clips and the clips plus rounds can be inserted into the rear of the cylinder. One way to tell if the rear face of the cylinder has been machined for moon clips is to look and see if Brit proof and ID marks are still present on the rear face of the cylinder. If they are there the cylinder has not been turned and the gun must fire original .445 Webley OR the hard to find rimmed .45 ACP. As in your picture it is normal for a .45 ACP to fall into the cylinder because there is no rim on the cartridge to headspace on. The moon clips serve as a device to allow the .45 ACP to emulate a rimmed cartridge. I hope this make some sense!!!

Regards,

Gunny

PS. Even though the rear of the cylinder face in your picture is somewhat fuzzy (At least to my ancient eyes) it appears as though the Brit marks are still there and, thence, the revolver is unaltered.

[Dave Sanders]

Thank you for that information. It makes perfect sense. Here is a close-up picture and the marks are there. Thanks again.
Dave

[padredan]

yours has not been machined down to fit the .45acp or .45 auto rim and will only fire the .455 carytridge it was designed for.

[GySgt1811]

Dave,

The 3 round Half moon clips, or, the 6 round full moon clips, were originally designed during WWI so as to allow the Colt and S&W revolvers to fire .45 ACP ammo. The cylinder was so sized at the factory to accept these spring steel clips. The .45 ACP revolvers were adapted to help ease the shortage of the Government Model 1911. Since the spring steel moon clip would kick out all 6 fired rounds in one motion AND one could load 3 or 6 rounds into a revolver with just one or two motions, these revolvers could be reloaded almost as fast as an automatic. When the Webley's came on the civilian market many found that, with the break top action, a modified Webley, i.e., rear cylinder face machined off to the proper dimension, the Webley could be reloaded even faster than with the original Brit rimmed rounds.

PadreDan, help me out here; I though the .445 Webley would accept the .45 Auto Rim without having to machine the rear of the Cylinder. I seem to recall trying to cut down the rimmed .45 Long Colt cases so their OAL matched the .455 Brit, but then one had to shave the rear of the .45 Long Colt cartridge a few thousandths because the rim of the Long Colt was thicker than the .455 Brit and would drag on the recoil shield. I'm dragging this stuff out of a very dusty and very old memory bank.

Anyway...End of gassy lecture and, a wonderful example of a Webley!

Regards,

John

[sheepherder]

Lahti web site -

http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/m40/pist40_1.htm

[RichSr]

John,
the .45 Auto Rim has a very thick rim designed to equal the rim of the 45 ACP plus the moon clip. It could therefore only be used in a Webley with a shaved cylinder

[Michael Zeleny]

Husqvarna m/40 pistols have been banned by the Swedish Army as unsafe since 1991. While the original design of the Lahti L-35 is as ill suited to the use of submachine gun ammunition as the Luger that it replaced in the Finnish military service, the notorious fragility of its licensed Swedish derivative appears to be due to differences in metallurgy. When used with loads manufactured to the original DWM standard, the Finnish version is a great service sidearm, as accurate as a Luger, and much more reliable.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

Husqvarna m/40 pistols have been banned by the Swedish Army as unsafe since 1991. While the original design of the Lahti L-35 is as ill suited to the use of submachine gun ammunition as the Luger that it replaced in the Finnish military service, the notorious fragility of its licensed Swedish derivative appears to be due to differences in metallurgy. When used with loads manufactured to the original DWM standard, the Finnish version is a great service sidearm, as accurate as a Luger, and much more reliable.

This was a logistic mistake made already when the M/40 was developed. The intention was to use a different 9mm round than the M/39B submachine gun round, the designation escapes me but it was pretty hard to come by. However, the M/39B is extremely plentiful, there was so much in stock that it was given away to the police, shooting clubs etc after the M/45B submachine gun was phased out. It's still out there, and one common question on Swedish forums is if the M/39B is safe to shoot in this or that weapon. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons why the Swedish authorities chose to adopt the Glock 17/Pistol 88 was that it could handle the M/39B ammo.

It seems to me like the "notorious fragility" you're talking about is an undeserved bad reputation, and it stems from the fact that so many of them have been used with the wrong ammo, i.e. the readily available M/39B. The M/40 is a heavy and stout pistol, more so than many other 9mm pistols, and I can't see that it would break if you just use the correct ammo. It's kind of the same thing as Lugers, P.38s and other old pistols, nobody would be surprised if they blew up after extended use of +P.