Help - history, value, etc.

GregWAZ · 09-29-2009, 08:45 PM

Can anyone help me with information about the attached photos? If I am missing any vital photos, please let me know and I will post them. THANKS

FNorm · 09-29-2009, 09:27 PM

You have what's called a Mauser Banner. These were commercial, to police, army, foreign, etc. To tell you more we need closer pics of the sides of the receiver/ the proof marks, and the top of the chamber. Serial number on the front of the frame or under the barrel.

Or maybe somebody with better eyes.

It does have the Mauser hump, a difference at the back of the frame which puts it around 1937 or after.

GregWAZ · 09-30-2009, 12:36 AM

Don't know if the additional photos will help or not. The top is stamped 1940, numbers are 96 on most parts with 896 near the barrel. On the left side, the numbers are stamped twice 655 with some sort of mark above - three horizontal lines (each getting shorter toward the bottom) and a Y or trident form on top of the three lines. Thanks again!

GregWAZ · 09-30-2009, 01:12 AM

one more thing ... looks like there is an eagle and an "N" above the serial number of 896

GregWAZ · 09-30-2009, 01:16 AM

OK ... more to add .... looks like an "X" below the 896 in front of the trigger guard.

FNorm · 09-30-2009, 04:51 AM

All that helps a lot: A 1940 Banner Serial number 896 x. The letter is part of the serial lumber too
They started a run unlettered, or ns 1-9999. then the next group would 1a-9999a, etc.

Quoting from Still's "Third Rich Lugers"

"The x suffix range is predominately C/U or E/N proofed. ( That's Crown U or Eagle N ) , E/C or E/L (or police models)

Of special interest are the E /N proofed 1940 dated E/655, E/655 Army accepted Banner. They are found in the 770x-1700x serial range and are interspersed with the 1940 date E/C marked German Police Lugers"

Interpreting: You have an Army Luger made the same time a lot of police lugers were being done. Estimated production 500.

Others here may be able to tell you more.

FN

Lugerdoc · 10-01-2009, 10:43 AM

You have what was intended to be a 1940 commerical luger, but appropriated by the military. So if in matching collectable condition, a rare bird. Th

GregWAZ · 10-01-2009, 01:54 PM

Since I am not an expert, obviously far from it, where should I look to verify that all numbers match? Visibly the body has the 896X number and most other visible parts have the 96 marking. Any hidden places to verify? How/where could I get an appraisal (live in Phoenix/Scottsdale area)? Thanks for your help/input!

Edward Tinker · 10-01-2009, 02:10 PM

FAQ can answer many questions on parts:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13121

Quote:

20) What parts must be numbered on a Luger?
The following parts should have serial numbers on them:
Frame, full serial number with suffix
Under barrel, full serial number with or without suffix
Left side of the receiver, full serial number without suffix.

All the following parts should have the last two numerals stamped on them:
Firing pin
Extractor
Sear bar
Breechblock
Front toggle link
Rear toggle link
Locking bolt (takedown lever)
Side plate (with a few exceptions through the years, see comments on side plate)
Trigger
Safety lever
Safety bar
Hold-open latch
Grips (inside)
Note, that the rear toggle pin was not serial-numbered until 1932.
There were two "styles" of serial number marking, Commercial style and Military style. In commercial style some of the numbers, notably the side-plate and locking bolt, were stamped underneath in a way which did not affect the surface look of the gun--military serial numbers were stamped on the visible surfaces. If your mismatched parts are stamped highly visibly they likely come from military guns.

GregWAZ · 10-02-2009, 04:40 PM

Ed,
Thanks for the list, I would not have found that ... and thanks for the copy/paste, I am lazy

Curious (since I am learning), should all numbers be identical - meaning the body and barrel extension have 896 and the rest is 96? Is that normal? Any known reason? Apart from that, it appears all numbers match. Is there a good way to value it (insurance and possibly selling some day)? The real bummer, it was in an attic in the original case for a ton of years and the leather ate away some of the blue (as you can see in the photos). Otherwise it's in good condition. Some pitting/corrosion, but fairly minor. It shoots great, but knowing what I know now, probably won't be taking it to the range much

Anyway, thanks for your help/input, much appreciated.

Tomathvl · 10-03-2009, 10:20 AM

The side plate and frame look to be crudely sanded. That will certainly hurt value.
Tom

Mauser720 · 10-03-2009, 10:49 AM

GregWAZ -

In regard to your question: "Curious (since I am learning), should all numbers be identical - meaning the body and barrel extension have 896 and the rest is 96? Is that normal? Any known reason?"

If I understand your question, the answer is that when the Luger came off the assembly line, all of its serially numbered parts did match in this way. There were a lot of hand fitting operations involved in the manufacturing of a Luger. And by serially numbering certain parts, all the original parts could be kept with the same Luger when it was cleaned and/or being worked on, etc.

Usually the last two digits of the serial number would be stamped on all the smaller parts that were numbers. So if the serial number of your Luger is "896" and you also have "96" stamped on all the other parts that were supposed to be numbered (please see Ed's list above), you have what is known as a "matching" Luger.

Certain parts can make a difference in whether the Luger reliably functions. So it made good sense to try to keep a gun assembled with all its original parts. Of course as these guns were used and as time went by, it became less and less likely that a Luger would survive with all its original parts.

So collectors look for Lugers which have all matching numbers. A single mismatched part greatly reduces the value of a Luger to a collector. And if you can find one that even has a matching magazine, then there is an additional premium for that too.

Hope this answers your question.

GregWAZ · 10-03-2009, 07:35 PM

Thanks for the info. Everything does match with exception of the magazine (even grips). I never touched the side, however, don't know what happened before I took possession. The scratches almost look like machine marks as they match parts that are blued, but am guessing someone did something to it. Appreciate all the help/input!

Lugerdoc · 10-05-2009, 10:43 AM

Bill, Perhaps you can contact GT (Gerry Tomek) in Chandler, for a hands-on valuation. TH

09-29-2009, 08:45 PM	#1
GregWAZ User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help - history, value, etc. Can anyone help me with information about the attached photos? If I am missing any vital photos, please let me know and I will post them. THANKS Attached Thumbnails

09-29-2009, 09:27 PM	#2
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	You have what's called a Mauser Banner. These were commercial, to police, army, foreign, etc. To tell you more we need closer pics of the sides of the receiver/ the proof marks, and the top of the chamber. Serial number on the front of the frame or under the barrel. Or maybe somebody with better eyes. It does have the Mauser hump, a difference at the back of the frame which puts it around 1937 or after. Last edited by FNorm; 09-29-2009 at 09:36 PM. Reason: dele spelling

09-30-2009, 12:36 AM	#3
GregWAZ User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	additional info Don't know if the additional photos will help or not. The top is stamped 1940, numbers are 96 on most parts with 896 near the barrel. On the left side, the numbers are stamped twice 655 with some sort of mark above - three horizontal lines (each getting shorter toward the bottom) and a Y or trident form on top of the three lines. Thanks again! Attached Thumbnails

09-30-2009, 01:12 AM	#4
GregWAZ User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	additional info one more thing ... looks like there is an eagle and an "N" above the serial number of 896

09-30-2009, 04:51 AM	#6
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	All that helps a lot: A 1940 Banner Serial number 896 x. The letter is part of the serial lumber too They started a run unlettered, or ns 1-9999. then the next group would 1a-9999a, etc. Quoting from Still's "Third Rich Lugers" "The x suffix range is predominately C/U or E/N proofed. ( That's Crown U or Eagle N ) , E/C or E/L (or police models) Of special interest are the E /N proofed 1940 dated E/655, E/655 Army accepted Banner. They are found in the 770x-1700x serial range and are interspersed with the 1940 date E/C marked German Police Lugers" Interpreting: You have an Army Luger made the same time a lot of police lugers were being done. Estimated production 500. Others here may be able to tell you more. FN Last edited by FNorm; 09-30-2009 at 04:55 AM. Reason: spelling

09-30-2009, 01:16 AM	#5
GregWAZ User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	OK ... more to add .... looks like an "X" below the 896 in front of the trigger guard.

10-01-2009, 10:43 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	You have what was intended to be a 1940 commerical luger, but appropriated by the military. So if in matching collectable condition, a rare bird. Th __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-01-2009, 01:54 PM	#8
GregWAZ User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Since I am not an expert, obviously far from it, where should I look to verify that all numbers match? Visibly the body has the 896X number and most other visible parts have the 96 marking. Any hidden places to verify? How/where could I get an appraisal (live in Phoenix/Scottsdale area)? Thanks for your help/input!

10-02-2009, 04:40 PM	#10
GregWAZ User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, Thanks for the list, I would not have found that ... and thanks for the copy/paste, I am lazy Curious (since I am learning), should all numbers be identical - meaning the body and barrel extension have 896 and the rest is 96? Is that normal? Any known reason? Apart from that, it appears all numbers match. Is there a good way to value it (insurance and possibly selling some day)? The real bummer, it was in an attic in the original case for a ton of years and the leather ate away some of the blue (as you can see in the photos). Otherwise it's in good condition. Some pitting/corrosion, but fairly minor. It shoots great, but knowing what I know now, probably won't be taking it to the range much Anyway, thanks for your help/input, much appreciated.

10-03-2009, 10:20 AM	#11
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	The side plate and frame look to be crudely sanded. That will certainly hurt value. Tom

10-03-2009, 10:49 AM	#12
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	GregWAZ - In regard to your question: "Curious (since I am learning), should all numbers be identical - meaning the body and barrel extension have 896 and the rest is 96? Is that normal? Any known reason?" If I understand your question, the answer is that when the Luger came off the assembly line, all of its serially numbered parts did match in this way. There were a lot of hand fitting operations involved in the manufacturing of a Luger. And by serially numbering certain parts, all the original parts could be kept with the same Luger when it was cleaned and/or being worked on, etc. Usually the last two digits of the serial number would be stamped on all the smaller parts that were numbers. So if the serial number of your Luger is "896" and you also have "96" stamped on all the other parts that were supposed to be numbered (please see Ed's list above), you have what is known as a "matching" Luger. Certain parts can make a difference in whether the Luger reliably functions. So it made good sense to try to keep a gun assembled with all its original parts. Of course as these guns were used and as time went by, it became less and less likely that a Luger would survive with all its original parts. So collectors look for Lugers which have all matching numbers. A single mismatched part greatly reduces the value of a Luger to a collector. And if you can find one that even has a matching magazine, then there is an additional premium for that too. Hope this answers your question. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

10-03-2009, 07:35 PM	#13
GregWAZ User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	match Thanks for the info. Everything does match with exception of the magazine (even grips). I never touched the side, however, don't know what happened before I took possession. The scratches almost look like machine marks as they match parts that are blued, but am guessing someone did something to it. Appreciate all the help/input!

10-05-2009, 10:43 AM	#14
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Bill, Perhaps you can contact GT (Gerry Tomek) in Chandler, for a hands-on valuation. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

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