Mauser Restoration

[fantomark]

HI!

I am writing to ask the opinion of you Luger experts about a potential purchase.

I was offered a brand new P08 9mm S/42 fully Mauser Factory restored .
I believe the date is 1939, with standard WWII military markings.

I have examined the pistol and it simply look spectacular.
I also inspected all the inside components, after the usual basic field-stripping.
All components look just like new, including the inside of barrel.
I have been assured that tha pistol has probably never been fired after ther restoration - apart from the usual test shots - and it looks like so!

Finish of blueing and strawing is really 100%: if anything almost TOO PERFECT for someone like me , who so far has only seen unrestored examples.
Grips have been obviously replaced and they are absulutely brand new.
The dealer says that Pistol also comes wth its original box, though I have not seen it yet.

I already have a 1918 and a 1921 DWMs., and now I would like to add a typical WWII P08 to my small collection.
I also am tempted by the fact that this full restoration is probably as close as I could ever get to a brand new P08 as issued originally by Mauser .
However, some collectors here believe that these modern factory restorations, although superb looking and fully functional should not be considered by serious collectors since the rebuild has destroyed the original value of the gun.

We have a similar situation with Vintage Cars & Bikes. Some purists believe that a well preserved original is always better than any restorations.

However I have just finished restoring My 1973 Harley-Davidson Electra Glide , which after many years of loyal service, at last needed (I would rather say: deserved) new paintwork & Chroming - plus minor mechanical work.
Now she looks again a beauty and and the engine runs happily as in her early days.
It is also a widely accepted opinion that her monetary value has also increased thanks to a full and careful restoration....would the same principle work for a Luger as well, especially if it was retored by the mother company, and almost never fired ever since?

.....Thanks to everybody in advance for your opinions!

Chers!

Marco

[John Sabato]

Ciao e' Benvenuto Marco.

The principles for classic cars generally does not apply to collectible firearms. The collector value to this pistol has been substantially reduced by the refinishing process to less than half of what it would be worth if it were in this condition and not altered after it left the factory. At least that is how most U.S. collectors view restorations. The gun is not particularyly rare.

If you are a truely a collector, I would pass on this pistol. If you intend to shoot this gun to enjoy it, and the price is within your means, then go ahead and buy it,

...but I doubt it would ever increase in value as much as an unaltered pistol of the same type...

If this pistol is one of the P.08's that were refurbished by Mauser and sold... then it would have it's own niche as far as collectibility... I don't believe that many of the guns received this treatment... so it would be worth more than a gun refurbished by anyone else, but never as much as an unaltered original specimen.

[Vlim]

Hi,

I want to make an additional remark here, it seems 'fantomark' is discussing a restoration done by Mauser themselves and yes, they exist.

Mauser themselves refurbished original Mauser pistols during the last years of the existance of their pistol producing branch in Oberdorf during the late 1990s (1997 - 1999).

These 'original' Mauser redo's are pretty rare and not to be confused with your average restoration offered by regular gunsmiths, etc...

These real Mauser restorations should be viewed in the same area as the post war Mauser Parabellums, perhaps a little bit higher.

Page from 1997 Mauser brochure:


Detailed view of the refurbished P08:

[Vlim]

Tac,

These guns restored by Mauser represent a last ditch attempt by Mauser to produce (or refurbish) a luger that was marketable. The fact that it was done by/for Mauser and only for a very short time makes it a collectible in it's own right and that will lift the price well above that of a normal reblue.

Tacky or not (no pun intended), it's part of the Mauser heritage.

[John Sabato]

You would get my vote for Pontiff Tac!

[John Sabato]

I was thinking more like Pope Jehoshaphat-I

You remind me more of him than many of the other former Kings of Israel, but I digress!

(For those who may not know, the story of Jehoshaphat is found in the book of 2 Chronicles, chapters 17-20.)

[alvin]

I guess Mauser factory restored S/42 is comparable to the Mauser P08 made in 1970s. One is a S/42, but it's factory restored, one is factory original but has a very young life. Both have plus and minus. If I must pick up one, I chose the latter in NIB condition. It's probably cheaper as well.

[fantomark]

Ciao!

and many thanks to all for prompt, kind and expert advice!

G. van Vlimmeren is right: this is an S/42 dated 1939 restored by Mauser .

Finish is actually a "glossy Black" with Strawing as per the photo in the 1997 leaflet supplied by G. van Vlimmeren .

It comes with an original Mauser box as illustrated, but with no accessories.
The dealer confirms it was a late 90s Mauser Factory refurb.
All parts (minus grips and magazine) are matching, but seller admits that some parts may indeed have been re-numbered by Mauser during the restoration in order to make the pistol all-matching.

I do agree that this gun has lost all of its history in the refurb process.

My idea was tu buy a Luger visually "perfect" and fully functional.

I am prepared to accept that the restoration process has somewhat reduced the historical value of the gun (Even if it's not clear to me why the principles of Classic Vehicles do not apply to guns....), but at least it's not a replica!

Just one question, anyway: Is strawing appropriate for a Mauser s/42 dated 1939? IF IT IS NOT, then it would be an incorrect restoration, and - as in the case of classic vehicles - this would detract from its value.

One final point: It should be always remembered that here in Italy all Lugers, including perfect full-matching specimens are somewhat "manipulated" as per the current Firearms Regulations, by being "converted" either to 7.65 Para or 9X21.


Any weapons originally in 9 Para gan't go on the civilian market here in Italy.
So the historical (and I would say also monetary value!) of any 9mm Luger is dramatically reduced in all cases anyway!


Thanks again to everybody.

Ciao!

Marco

[alvin]

Originally posted by fantomark Is strawing appropriate for a Mauser s/42 dated 1939?

It's supposed to have salt blued small parts. But they are Mauser. Everything that they change is legitimate. If you "correct" it back, it's not factory restored anymore.

[SteveM]

It should be always remembered that here in Italy all Lugers, including perfect full-matching specimens are somewhat "manipulated" as per the current Firearms Regulations, by being "converted" either to 7.65 Para or 9X21.

Marco,

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I have a question. I am a CZ75 enthusiast and am wondering if these are available in Italy 7.65 Para. If they are, do they come from the factory in this configuration or is it something that the buyer has to have converted ?

I know that Hi-Powers have been available in this caliber and was wondering about the CZ75.

Thanks,
Steve

[fantomark]

Ciao, Tac!

Signor Fantomark writing (I quite like that!!)

I heve read with great care and attention through all the points you made , and I must say I do agree with most of your remarks.

It seems clear to me that this is an inaccurate restoration, and I am probably not going for it, in the end.

A "reedeming feature" for this P08, however, would be that - having been restored by the Mother Factory and looking brand new in all of its internal components - would probably be one of the best buy ever from a functional point of view.

I do like shooting my guns and I know by experience that an unrestored P08 is always an unknonw entity when it comes to shooting!
I did have serious problems with one of my 2 other Lugers (toggle not remaining open, bullets not chambering properly, etc) and I only managed to make it function properly only thanks to the expert advice of the Forum, a new magazine and a new mainspring ..........On the contrary I would expect a factory rebuild (which also comes with a performance guarantee from the dealer) would be expected not to give any problems......


In any case I am also considering another option: this is a1938 S/42, all matching (including magazine & grips), original metal finish at 90%, no strawing. Barrel in top condition.

If seller agrees to a test shooting session and all goes fine, I am probably going for that (incidentally: same price as the factory refurb...!)
Would that be fine for you?

As to your opinion that ratherhaving a P08 in 9x21, you would not have a P08 at all, I do not agree with this. I do have friends in the UK that are quite happy with their decommissioned Lugers rather than having no Lugers at all!

All the best!

Marco

[wlyon]

Tac
S/42 lugers were strawed until the 1500t range in 1937. After that they were blued. Bill.

[alvin]

Factory reworked guns are supposed to have lower value than original ones. But I agree with Vlim, they're not same with Waffenfabrik USA products.... especially many years later. Here is an example:

Let's look at the Mauser refurbishing from a different angle. It's not unlike those 1920 reworked C96s, or postwar commercial Red 9s, or R.F.V marked reworks.... God knows where they found those parts, they put them together, renumbered them, changed the configuration (we call it a "variation"), may even relining the bore (!) and sold them domestically or internationally. Those are collectibles today.

[wdavid431]

With everything said we must remember, it is still a Luger.