Is this a police or military holster?

[JD]

I recently received a new holster for a P08. It looks like a standard military type hard shell holster with magazine pouch on the front, loading tool pouch on the inside of the top flap (Loading tool pouch is natural brown leather.) and lifting strap. It is brown undyed leather on the back, and the front of the holster is dyed black. Stitching is white thread, but the thread on the front has been dyed black to match the black leather (Perhaps the holster has been re-dyed at some point?). The back has the normal two belt loops, but between the two belt loops is a third leather tab with a brass "O" ring at the top; I assume for attaching to some type shoulder strap or web gear. On the inside of the holster flap, directly under where the hold down strap is attached the leather is indent stamped: HANS ROMER (with an umalaut over the "o"), 1916, NEU ULM. The stamping is indent stamped into the leather, and not in ink, and was very hard to notice until I was cleaning the holster. Holster is in very good shape. My knowledge on holsters is quite limited, so any information or opinions on what this holster might be is appreciated.

Thanks!

JD (New luger collector in training!)

[John Sabato]

JD, welcome to the Lugerforum. Any possibility of you post a couple of photographs that would help in your holster identification?

[lugerholsterrepair]

JD, Sounds a little unusual. Need more information as John says to determine what it might be.I would guess it was an unauthorized addition somewhere along the line. Certainly not standard. The 0 ring between the belt loops needs to be seen to determine how it got there.Usually by observing the stitching, leather and placement one can get some idea of who, what, when. You are describing a normal WW1 era holster that was dyed black by Imperial decree. All German leather equiptment was supposed to receive this treatment but many escaped. Jerry Burney

[JD]

I'll try to post some photograghs tonight after work.

The stitching that attaches the middle tab appears to be the same as that used to attach the two belt loops, but I'll try to get some good close up photos.

Thanks!

JD

[JD]

OK, here are some photos of the holster
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster2_copy1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster2_copy1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster1_copy2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster1_copy2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster3_copy1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster3_copy1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster4.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster4.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster5.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster5.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[lugerholsterrepair]

JD, Interesting. The strap and D ring seem to be put in by someone other than an experienced saddler. It was certainly hand stitched, not machine. The thread appears to be cotton, not flax. I would say it is not period. The cross at the top where it comes through the hinge is poorly done and not something a German Saddler would do. I cannot imagine what it is there for. The dye job on this holster looks recent as well. It's a very nice holster though! Jerry Burney

[Ron Smith]

Jerry, Possibly a police armorers pre or post war add on for a shoulder strap? Perhaps for mounted police. Just a guess.
Ron

[lugerholsterrepair]

Ron, Yes, it would be a guess. I am guessing post war because of the light white cotton thread and poor workmanship. Could have been an attempt to attach the holster to the clip on a shoulder harness usually used for K-98 pouches. Jerry Burney

[JD]

Jerry, Yes, the holster is in very good shape; suprisingly good considering it was made in 1916. I did give it a coat of leather wax, which is one of the reasons the holster looks as good as it does in the photos. I have not seen another holster with the added "O" ring (Though my knowledge on holsters is very limited), but I thought it may have been added for police use. It was probably re-dyed at the same time. It looks like it was well cared for. Wish I knew the history on it!!!!

[lugerholsterrepair]

JD, Navy "U" Boot holsters had two of these attached, one on either side for a shoulder strap.I would suspect this was someone's attempt at an alternative carry from the usual belt. To the best of my knowledge this was not a standard or even seldom used attachment for Police or anyone else. Kinda unique! Jerry Burney

[JD]

Jerry, I assume that it would be best to leave it attached as is rather than remove it to change the holster back to a "standard" configuration?

Also, on one of the belt loops the stitching is loosening somewhat. Should it be left alone? I have done leather work and have re-stitched holsters before and could re-stitch it, but where do you find the proper flax thread? How far should one go in "restoring" a vintage holster?

Thanks!!!!

[lugerholsterrepair]

JD, Unlike pistols, it only improves a holster to repair and stablize it's deterioration." If it is done Correctly" A number of people often ask if it devalues a holster to have it repaired and I have to say, what good is it in parts and pieces? There are many types of collectors, those who only want the best original, those who dont care if it has a little honest wear or battle damage and those who will accept repro's made in Pakistan. There are also many in between.
I think it is up to you to decide if the added strap and D ring is acceptable to your collecting desires. If it were mine I wouldn't like it, particularly because I don't think it was added before about 1970. I also wouldn't be excited about removing it as it would leave some unexplained holes in the back. Kind of a cunumdrum, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If the stitching is not too bad and you will use the holster for display only I would leave it alone. If you monkey around with it and use the wrong thread it could damage it further. When repairing these it is important to use the proper type of thread, color thread , thickness of thread and the proper tie-offs on the inside. If you do it poorly it is best not to do it at all. Not to say you would do it poorly but as you can see, some thought must go into it before you start.
Restoring a German Luger holster can be as simple as stitching here or there or re stitching every thread in the holster. Replacing many of the small parts. Replacing the metal hand hammered studs. Moulding a front body and replacing it. Taking a body off another holster and putting it on the repair holster. Same with the top. Replacing tops or in the case of an Artillery, replacing tool rod pouches or ears. If any of this is done correctly it is very hard to detect. If done correctly it vastly improves the value of the holster.
As far as thread goes, linen (flax) Thread is difficult to locate and expensive. If you think you need a piece to stitch up your holster belt loop let me know and I will send you a yard of it.

Remember, it is difficult to stitch up a belt loop...the top ones are directly under themselves and a needle will butt against the strap, making it hard if not impossible to stitch the top without removing the bottom first. The bottom is difficult because it is way down there and the right strap is too close to the side of the body to get at . All the old thread must be removed before starting as it is in the way and will look like hell unless it's gone. This is usually about half the job! Good Luck! Hope this answers your question. Jerry Burney

[JD]

Thanks Jerry!!!!! I'll probably leave the belt loop as it is for now, its not all that loose, though it looks like one stitch may have come out. I'm one of those people who like to have everything perfect, but in some cases it's better to leave things be.........