AFK holster

Roadkill · 03-19-2004, 01:39 PM

Haven't seen one of these before

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...category=15503

rk

John Sabato · 03-19-2004, 01:49 PM

I guess ya learn something every day... I have never seen one of these either RK.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-19-2004, 02:31 PM

Fellows, Let's just say I am a skeptic...Not one of this type of holster has ever surfaced and been documented or written up in any of the known Luger volumes in over 70 years up to now. There are many European holsters made of a combination of leather and canvas materials but this one does not have the look of a period holster.It should have a patina, glossy, dirty, shiney in places.It seems to lack this to any great degree. I would love to examine it up close and personal to see what I could see but I would not expect to see anything but a fantasy replica of what someone thinks he imagines an Africa Korps holster would have looked like if the Germans had actually decided to manufacture such a holster.

There are aspects of this piece that do look authentic or at least period however. Look closely at the stitching on the closure strap. The closure strap and the stitching on it look very good. I cannot say for certain about the canvas parts...The aluminum closure stud seems to have no dark patina whatsoever.

I am certainly no expert on this type of holster and while some parts of it look good others bring doubt to my mind.

The pouches in the front are indescript and it is questionable what they are for, although one could surmise they are for magazines, they do not look to be the right size for the Luger magazine.

The toe of the holster is too large in my opinion for the luger, and seems to be suited more for a Radom or High Power style.

I would be interested to hear anyone's opinion about this interesting holster. I would love to be proven wrong here and am always ready to learn from anyone with more information than I have.

Jerry Burney

Holster out of olivem Web, for the use at the SÃ?Â¼dfont and/or in the Africa corps for the pistol 08 or P 38 (fit both purely). In the interior cover WaA stamp. Good condition easily needed. See pictures: important reference to the guarantee: the new legislation plans that also private salesmen receive guarantee and/or guarantee, if they not specifically exclude this. I am private person and reject each guarantee and/or guarantee. With the duty of the commandment, they declare itself specifically therewith agreed, on legal guarantee to be second-hand goods and or change totally to verzichten!!!!!!!!! ; Who with this regulation agreed is not, would like to ask that I hÃ?Â¶fflich here not mitzubieten!!!!

Roadkill · 03-19-2004, 03:43 PM

I sent the seller an email asking for more information about the holster (history, details, closeups ect) and a link to the Luger Forum.

rk

John Sabato · 03-19-2004, 04:37 PM

Jerry the more I look at it the more I am convinced that you are correct. Another thing is that the "mag pouches" on the front are not the right shape. They definitely have too much girth for either Luger or P38 mags... If it IS a period holster, I would have to say it is for a Browning P-35 Hi-power... The mags would fit the pouches a little better since they are double-stacked for most of the height.

anyway, that is my two cents... (and it is Friday and I am too lazy to post the jpeg of those pennies!)

Roadkill · 03-19-2004, 07:13 PM

I'm not aware of the Germans using any canvas web gear or holsters, was always leather. The British & Commomnwealth countries always did. Based on observations and my own insignificant speculation and parties involved in the theater at the time it "could" be an uncommon version of a HP holster either Canadian or Britsh. Could also be post war version. But, here is the reply I just got from a very decent gentleman by the name of Marcus who is the seller which makes this curiouser and curiouser: (he sent reply in English)

Hallo.
>
> First I want to say, that I like your nickname,
> and second is that I have bought two of this holsters froma good friend of mine also a collector of AK items living in Leipzig in the early 90th .
The leather work and also the kind of web is absolutly original, as far as I know the material. By the way, Leipzig is a stronghold of
Tropen equipment in Germany, maybe because a lot of Afrikakorps parts came back from the big Luftwaffen depots in czecheslowakia into the the short fleemarkets of eastern Germany.
My father was serving in Afrika during the second world war and was telling me all the way that he has used a web holster for his FN HP captured in Hungaria from an officier.
>
> I hope I could help you a little bit.
>
> Best regards
>
> Marcus

rk

lugerholsterrepair · 03-19-2004, 08:00 PM

RK, John...I tend to agree with you as well John..Could be for the High-Power. Hard to say because the magazine pouches, if that is what they are, are not extended to any degree to tell what would fit into them.

Interesting response RK. Always nice to hear from a seller. Never know when some useful information might be gleaned.I don't quite know what to make of his story though.

RK, Have you forgotten the canvas 32 round Trommel magazine holster? Like you I cannot recall many ventures into this material from the Germans but this is one of them...The canvas ones are authentic while the leather ones are spurious. The leather closure straps on a canvas carrier are sewn on much differently than this holster in question. In an X inside a box rather than the U as is seen on most German leather holsters.

It is not British or Canadian in my opinion.Even though it is made like those types of holsters. The leather closure strap and stitching are a dead giveaway towards German manufacture. This is the only thing about it that would lead me to lean towards authenticity. I would like to get a close look at the markings inside the top. Not that they are meaningfull necessarily. Just curious.Jerry Burney

Roadkill · 03-19-2004, 08:30 PM

Good point, Jerry. But those were developed for WWI and leather (you tell me, you are the expert) would not easily lend itself to the shape required for the trommel magazine when 20 minutes with a sewing machine and cheap canvas material would serve quite well. If they would have considered the venture using canvas successful they most likely would have used it for the obvious as did the British (rifle slings, belts, canteen covers, holsters, Y harnesses, ect) for WWII but continued however to use leather. Another factor is that we are looking at this object without a true perspective of scale. It could indeed be larger or smaller than what we see in our minds. If there was a Luger or HP in the photos then we would be able to actually see what its size was in porportion to an object we are familar with. Sort of like my grand dad's rocking chair on the front porch. When I was a small boy it was huge. I could see the whole world when I climbed up in that chair. When I took it home after he died many years ago I was shocked at its diminutiveness and frailty. But I still can see the whole world when I sit in it, its just that the view is different. Later, ya'll. Think I'm gonna go rock a while on the porch with my two ugly dogs.

rk

lugerholsterrepair · 03-19-2004, 10:50 PM

RK, You bring up a good point. I don't know why the Germans would develop the Trommel mag cover and then drop all canvas. It certainly must be easier to build things of canvas material as you say. Building a leather Trommel mag carrier would be very difficult and time consuming. Fit would also be an issue. Even a small error could cause the leather carrier to be small enough to make extraction difficult if not impossible. Shrinkage from age or weather for instance.

I don't know why anyone considers me a holster expert. I am interested in studying the subject is all. I can occasionally transfer some things I notice from my repair experience to a holster under discussion but I am not that knowledgable really. I defer to many others that are much better versed on holsters on a daily basis. I could name a half dozen without thinking very hard.

As for the proportion, that is another valid point. Hard to determine much without a sense of scale.

My Wife, Ellie and I collect antique furniture as we prefer it to modern pieces and have received many beautiful items from our parents. I can relate to your story of your Grandfather's rocker. I believe your view of the World might be influenced by both the chair and the Great Man who sat in it. Thanks for your perspective, Jerry Burney

John -Melb · 03-23-2004, 08:54 AM

I'm relying on memory here folks but it looks an awful lot like a holster I was shown about 15-20 years ago. This holster and the pistol it contained was reputedly taken from a Luftwaffe pilot in North Africa. The pistol wsa a .32 calibre Astra "Ruby", (the 1915 model). Thousands of these were taken into German service following the fall of France.

Again, I'm relying on memory so I could be mistaken.

03-19-2004, 01:39 PM	#1
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	AFK holster Haven't seen one of these before http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...category=15503 rk

03-19-2004, 01:49 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I guess ya learn something every day... I have never seen one of these either RK. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-19-2004, 02:31 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Fellows, Let's just say I am a skeptic...Not one of this type of holster has ever surfaced and been documented or written up in any of the known Luger volumes in over 70 years up to now. There are many European holsters made of a combination of leather and canvas materials but this one does not have the look of a period holster.It should have a patina, glossy, dirty, shiney in places.It seems to lack this to any great degree. I would love to examine it up close and personal to see what I could see but I would not expect to see anything but a fantasy replica of what someone thinks he imagines an Africa Korps holster would have looked like if the Germans had actually decided to manufacture such a holster. There are aspects of this piece that do look authentic or at least period however. Look closely at the stitching on the closure strap. The closure strap and the stitching on it look very good. I cannot say for certain about the canvas parts...The aluminum closure stud seems to have no dark patina whatsoever. I am certainly no expert on this type of holster and while some parts of it look good others bring doubt to my mind. The pouches in the front are indescript and it is questionable what they are for, although one could surmise they are for magazines, they do not look to be the right size for the Luger magazine. The toe of the holster is too large in my opinion for the luger, and seems to be suited more for a Radom or High Power style. I would be interested to hear anyone's opinion about this interesting holster. I would love to be proven wrong here and am always ready to learn from anyone with more information than I have. Jerry Burney Holster out of olivem Web, for the use at the SÃ?Â¼dfont and/or in the Africa corps for the pistol 08 or P 38 (fit both purely). In the interior cover WaA stamp. Good condition easily needed. See pictures: important reference to the guarantee: the new legislation plans that also private salesmen receive guarantee and/or guarantee, if they not specifically exclude this. I am private person and reject each guarantee and/or guarantee. With the duty of the commandment, they declare itself specifically therewith agreed, on legal guarantee to be second-hand goods and or change totally to verzichten!!!!!!!!! ; Who with this regulation agreed is not, would like to ask that I hÃ?Â¶fflich here not mitzubieten!!!! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-19-2004, 04:37 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Jerry the more I look at it the more I am convinced that you are correct. Another thing is that the "mag pouches" on the front are not the right shape. They definitely have too much girth for either Luger or P38 mags... If it IS a period holster, I would have to say it is for a Browning P-35 Hi-power... The mags would fit the pouches a little better since they are double-stacked for most of the height. anyway, that is my two cents... (and it is Friday and I am too lazy to post the jpeg of those pennies!) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-19-2004, 08:00 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	RK, John...I tend to agree with you as well John..Could be for the High-Power. Hard to say because the magazine pouches, if that is what they are, are not extended to any degree to tell what would fit into them. Interesting response RK. Always nice to hear from a seller. Never know when some useful information might be gleaned.I don't quite know what to make of his story though. RK, Have you forgotten the canvas 32 round Trommel magazine holster? Like you I cannot recall many ventures into this material from the Germans but this is one of them...The canvas ones are authentic while the leather ones are spurious. The leather closure straps on a canvas carrier are sewn on much differently than this holster in question. In an X inside a box rather than the U as is seen on most German leather holsters. It is not British or Canadian in my opinion.Even though it is made like those types of holsters. The leather closure strap and stitching are a dead giveaway towards German manufacture. This is the only thing about it that would lead me to lean towards authenticity. I would like to get a close look at the markings inside the top. Not that they are meaningfull necessarily. Just curious.Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-19-2004, 03:43 PM	#4
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	I sent the seller an email asking for more information about the holster (history, details, closeups ect) and a link to the Luger Forum. rk

03-19-2004, 07:13 PM	#6
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	I'm not aware of the Germans using any canvas web gear or holsters, was always leather. The British & Commomnwealth countries always did. Based on observations and my own insignificant speculation and parties involved in the theater at the time it "could" be an uncommon version of a HP holster either Canadian or Britsh. Could also be post war version. But, here is the reply I just got from a very decent gentleman by the name of Marcus who is the seller which makes this curiouser and curiouser: (he sent reply in English) Hallo. > > First I want to say, that I like your nickname, > and second is that I have bought two of this holsters froma good friend of mine also a collector of AK items living in Leipzig in the early 90th . The leather work and also the kind of web is absolutly original, as far as I know the material. By the way, Leipzig is a stronghold of Tropen equipment in Germany, maybe because a lot of Afrikakorps parts came back from the big Luftwaffen depots in czecheslowakia into the the short fleemarkets of eastern Germany. My father was serving in Afrika during the second world war and was telling me all the way that he has used a web holster for his FN HP captured in Hungaria from an officier. > > I hope I could help you a little bit. > > Best regards > > Marcus rk

03-19-2004, 08:30 PM	#8
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Good point, Jerry. But those were developed for WWI and leather (you tell me, you are the expert) would not easily lend itself to the shape required for the trommel magazine when 20 minutes with a sewing machine and cheap canvas material would serve quite well. If they would have considered the venture using canvas successful they most likely would have used it for the obvious as did the British (rifle slings, belts, canteen covers, holsters, Y harnesses, ect) for WWII but continued however to use leather. Another factor is that we are looking at this object without a true perspective of scale. It could indeed be larger or smaller than what we see in our minds. If there was a Luger or HP in the photos then we would be able to actually see what its size was in porportion to an object we are familar with. Sort of like my grand dad's rocking chair on the front porch. When I was a small boy it was huge. I could see the whole world when I climbed up in that chair. When I took it home after he died many years ago I was shocked at its diminutiveness and frailty. But I still can see the whole world when I sit in it, its just that the view is different. Later, ya'll. Think I'm gonna go rock a while on the porch with my two ugly dogs. rk

03-19-2004, 10:50 PM	#9
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	RK, You bring up a good point. I don't know why the Germans would develop the Trommel mag cover and then drop all canvas. It certainly must be easier to build things of canvas material as you say. Building a leather Trommel mag carrier would be very difficult and time consuming. Fit would also be an issue. Even a small error could cause the leather carrier to be small enough to make extraction difficult if not impossible. Shrinkage from age or weather for instance. I don't know why anyone considers me a holster expert. I am interested in studying the subject is all. I can occasionally transfer some things I notice from my repair experience to a holster under discussion but I am not that knowledgable really. I defer to many others that are much better versed on holsters on a daily basis. I could name a half dozen without thinking very hard. As for the proportion, that is another valid point. Hard to determine much without a sense of scale. My Wife, Ellie and I collect antique furniture as we prefer it to modern pieces and have received many beautiful items from our parents. I can relate to your story of your Grandfather's rocker. I believe your view of the World might be influenced by both the chair and the Great Man who sat in it. Thanks for your perspective, Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-23-2004, 08:54 AM	#10
John -Melb User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Peoples Republic of Australia! Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm relying on memory here folks but it looks an awful lot like a holster I was shown about 15-20 years ago. This holster and the pistol it contained was reputedly taken from a Luftwaffe pilot in North Africa. The pistol wsa a .32 calibre Astra "Ruby", (the 1915 model). Thousands of these were taken into German service following the fall of France. Again, I'm relying on memory so I could be mistaken.