How were early military guns marked ?

Stu · 11-19-2002, 10:53 AM

Described as a 1911 military but the small parts aren't numbered as I'd expect, (with the exception of the sear).

Did the military number differently prior to a certain date ?

Refinished or not ? It seems by the 'buy it now' that the seller expects a fairly high price.

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=3530282

John Sabato · 11-19-2002, 01:16 PM

I would venture MY OPINION that this gun has been refinished at some point because the extreme wear on the safety lever does not match the pristine appearance of the checkering on the mag button or the takedown lever...

There is virtually no wear on the high points (sideplate) or the sides of the muzzle and that conflicts with the safety lever appearance.

I believe that the 1911 Model is one of the rarer types... Since I know that Luke S. has been looking for one for some time now and I think Jan Still mentioned that when he participated in this forum. (since he erased alll his comments when he left, we can't confirm that now) I do remember that Jan has one in his personal collection. I remember that Murray Willis also has one in his collection. Do a search for posts by Murray and he may have posted a closeup of his 1911 you could look at while you are waiting for an authoritative response from him or others...

Sorry I can't answer your question about numbering of the early models, but I am sure one or more of the guys who specialize in this area will chime in shortly.

Is $950 too much for a refinished 1911? Maybe... Maybe not... How bad do you want one [img]confused.gif[/img]

Brandon · 11-19-2002, 01:54 PM

Hi Stu,
According to Still, (Pg. 22-23, Imperial Lugers) the transition from commercial style serial number placement to military style placement took place at the DWM factory in the 1912 production run, However Erfurt used the military style placement on Lugers dated 1911 (Pg. 60 Imperial Lugers)...Interesting!

Regards,Brandon

P.S. I am not one of the experts John S. was talking about,... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Stu · 11-19-2002, 02:00 PM

Thanks chaps. I wasn't aware of the significance of this one, just trying to expand my knowledge of 'points to look for'. Given its rarity then perhaps the price is reasonable, (but not in my league) ?

It certainly looks to be in good condition; is it the original finish though !

Stu

Brandon · 11-19-2002, 02:05 PM

Almost forgot!
Imperial Lugers also states: ""The 1911 DWM was manufactured without a hold-open and was numbered in the commercial style. Most had a hold-open added later, and some had military style serial numberes added."

Very interesting indeed!

Brandon...

Johnny Peppers · 11-19-2002, 02:14 PM

My 1911 DWM did not go back through rebuild for the addition of the holdopen. It is numbered in the commercial style with the exception of the chamber date.

Ron Wood · 11-19-2002, 02:32 PM

Good research Brandon! I have owned at one time a 1910 and a 1911 DWM, both of which were numbered in the commercial style. Both my 1912 DWM and Erfurt have the military style serial numbers. The sear bar on the gun under discussion may, and I repeat may, be a replacement. But, depending upon how late in 1911 it was produced, it may be original, or marked/replaced if a holdopen was added.

Brandon · 11-20-2002, 09:24 PM

Ron,
Since you "converted" me I've really been brushing up on my Imperial Lugers... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] !

I try to research the topics that are discussed on the forum in the books that I have whether I post on that topic or not!

It seems that if I research stuff, write down what I find, and perhaps ask a knowledgable peson like you for more information, and discuss the subject, it sticks with me! I think I could be able to remember this discussion when I'm 80!

So now if I ever encounter a 1911 DWM I'll know about the serial number placement!

This Forum really is a great place... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Regards,Brandon

P.S. Thanks alot to John D <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> , John S <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> , and all the other admin. For paying the bills, doing the programming, and all kinds of other work, Just so we can enjoy it...THANKS... <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Jimbo · 11-20-2002, 10:52 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brandon:
<strong>Ron,
Since you "converted" me I've really been

P.S. Thanks alot to John D <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> , John S <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> , and all the other admin. For paying the bills, doing the programming, and all kinds of other work, Just so we can enjoy it...THANKS... <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I second that motion!!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Thank you for Saving Our Forum (SOF).

11-19-2002, 10:53 AM	#1
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	How were early military guns marked ? Described as a 1911 military but the small parts aren't numbered as I'd expect, (with the exception of the sear). Did the military number differently prior to a certain date ? Refinished or not ? It seems by the 'buy it now' that the seller expects a fairly high price. http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=3530282

11-19-2002, 01:16 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I would venture MY OPINION that this gun has been refinished at some point because the extreme wear on the safety lever does not match the pristine appearance of the checkering on the mag button or the takedown lever... There is virtually no wear on the high points (sideplate) or the sides of the muzzle and that conflicts with the safety lever appearance. I believe that the 1911 Model is one of the rarer types... Since I know that Luke S. has been looking for one for some time now and I think Jan Still mentioned that when he participated in this forum. (since he erased alll his comments when he left, we can't confirm that now) I do remember that Jan has one in his personal collection. I remember that Murray Willis also has one in his collection. Do a search for posts by Murray and he may have posted a closeup of his 1911 you could look at while you are waiting for an authoritative response from him or others... Sorry I can't answer your question about numbering of the early models, but I am sure one or more of the guys who specialize in this area will chime in shortly. Is $950 too much for a refinished 1911? Maybe... Maybe not... How bad do you want one [img]confused.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-19-2002, 02:32 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Good research Brandon! I have owned at one time a 1910 and a 1911 DWM, both of which were numbered in the commercial style. Both my 1912 DWM and Erfurt have the military style serial numbers. The sear bar on the gun under discussion may, and I repeat may, be a replacement. But, depending upon how late in 1911 it was produced, it may be original, or marked/replaced if a holdopen was added. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-19-2002, 01:54 PM	#3
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Stu, According to Still, (Pg. 22-23, Imperial Lugers) the transition from commercial style serial number placement to military style placement took place at the DWM factory in the 1912 production run, However Erfurt used the military style placement on Lugers dated 1911 (Pg. 60 Imperial Lugers)...Interesting! Regards,Brandon P.S. I am not one of the experts John S. was talking about,... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

11-19-2002, 02:00 PM	#4
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Thanks chaps. I wasn't aware of the significance of this one, just trying to expand my knowledge of 'points to look for'. Given its rarity then perhaps the price is reasonable, (but not in my league) ? It certainly looks to be in good condition; is it the original finish though ! Stu

11-19-2002, 02:05 PM	#5
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Almost forgot! Imperial Lugers also states: ""The 1911 DWM was manufactured without a hold-open and was numbered in the commercial style. Most had a hold-open added later, and some had military style serial numberes added." Very interesting indeed! Brandon...

11-19-2002, 02:14 PM	#6
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	My 1911 DWM did not go back through rebuild for the addition of the holdopen. It is numbered in the commercial style with the exception of the chamber date.

11-20-2002, 09:24 PM	#8
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, Since you "converted" me I've really been brushing up on my Imperial Lugers... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] ! I try to research the topics that are discussed on the forum in the books that I have whether I post on that topic or not! It seems that if I research stuff, write down what I find, and perhaps ask a knowledgable peson like you for more information, and discuss the subject, it sticks with me! I think I could be able to remember this discussion when I'm 80! So now if I ever encounter a 1911 DWM I'll know about the serial number placement! This Forum really is a great place... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> Regards,Brandon P.S. Thanks alot to John D <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> , John S <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> , and all the other admin. For paying the bills, doing the programming, and all kinds of other work, Just so we can enjoy it...THANKS... <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

11-20-2002, 10:52 PM	#9
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Brandon: <strong>Ron, Since you "converted" me I've really been P.S. Thanks alot to John D <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> , John S <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> , and all the other admin. For paying the bills, doing the programming, and all kinds of other work, Just so we can enjoy it...THANKS... <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> I second that motion!!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> Thank you for Saving Our Forum (SOF).