Buffed, Reblued, Boosted - Need Advice

[Luke]

I have been working with the assumption that ALL of the WW-I DWM Lugers (1908-1918) had the serial numbers stamped on the bottoms of the barrels added AFTER bluing.

Given that assumption, any such WW-I DWM Luger which has NOT been buffed or blued will have a barrel SN which has the following characteristics:

1. The barrel serial number will be crisply defined.

2. The barrel SN will not appear buffed or polished over,

3. This SN will have slightly raised edges around the numbers due to the force of the die driving into the metal,

4. The barrel SN will exhibit a halo or frosting effect around the numbers.

I have been consistently rejecting any Luger from DWM and this era which does not exhibit these characteristics. I have seen MANY which have this number buffed level with the barrel and, in some cases, almost buffed out.

AM I MAKING A BIG MISTAKE HERE. Need expert advice.

Thanks,
Luke

[Dwight Gruber]

Luke, I'm really glad you asked the question. I'd like to up the ante a little bit, and say that what would really be useful, particularly for those of us who are relatively new to this and don't have a reference library, would be a brief compendium of stamping practices--what stamps went on which guns before polishing and bluing and which went on after; what special characteristics might appertain to particular guns; and what commonly seen fakes/boosts we might recognize.

--Dwight

[unspellable]

In line with this sort of thing, were ALL M1920's rust blued or were some salt blued? I've seen some very nice ones that appear to be salt blued but otherwise original. These are usually not so rare or valuable as to be a great temptation to the booster/forger element. Especially if you have to do a careful enough polishing job to make it look original.

[unspellable]

In line with this sort of thing, were ALL M1920's rust blued or were some salt blued? I've seen some very nice ones that appear to be salt blued but otherwise original. These are usually not so rare or valuable as to be a great temptation to the booster/forger element. Especially if you have to do a careful enough polishing job to make it look original.

[Thor]

All 1920s were Rust blued when they were put together. Mauser started Salt bluing in 1937. DWM and ERFURT ALWAYS used rust bluing as far as I know! 1920 Commercials have been used to "make" many rare Luger "replicas" as the original 1920 didnt have a chamber date (either made that way or ground off Imperial date) and many didnt have much in the way of markings. I love the 1920 Commercial 3 & 7/8" 30 Luger. Most are very accurate and a pleasure to shoot.

[Garfield]

Luke:

In response to you question, Imho, everything you have said is right as rain.

Good Hunting,

[Luke]

Garfield, you're a good man. That's what I love, a straight, direct answer. Thank you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

DO ANY OF THE OTHER EXPERIENCED COLLECTORS DISAGREE?

Luke

[unspellable]

Thor,

The distinction between an M1920, a military surplus, and a military rewrok can get a bit blurry at times. I've seen Lugers with chamber dates that were either reworked military or an M1920, some of them sure looked like an M1920. But I expect this.

The real puzzler is seeing an M1920 in very nice shape that looks like it has an original salt blue job. If it didn't have any rust or pits to begin with, and is all nice and sharp, why would somebody salt blue it? Doesn't seem worth the effort. These things are not rare and about as cheap as any very good to ecellent condition Luger as you can find. Cheap enough to put the blueing on, but I always thought there was a bit of labor in polishing the old finish off, especially if you take enough care to avoid rounding off the corners and smudging the marks.

[Navy]

Luke,

Garfield gets an Amen from me; you are dead on.

Tom <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Thor]

Why would someone salt bluing it? because salt bluing can make it look new again, it is much cheaper than rust bluing because of the time envolved. Like I said, DWM and Erfurt didnt do it YET, even Mauser in 37 had some rough starts with salt bluing. Since all the books I have read said DWM and Erfurts were rust blued, and they were the only ones doing Lugers in the 20s, then I assume the 1920s were rust blued when they were made. When you reblue a gun, the bluing on the gun originally was lacking and you want it to look better.

[unspellable]

Thor,

All true, but how do you lose the original blueing and still have an otherwise new looking piece? And even for salt bluing, you still have to remove the old finish and polish the pieces. Still seems like a lot of work for a gun that looks new to begin with. If it didn't look new, it would require the kind of work you are doing to make it look new. There's not enough money involved in the price of an otherwise run of the mill M1920 to provide an incentive for boosting. (And this is not a crude blueing job we are talking about here.)

I have one with a history such that I have to believe the last time (Be it first or second time.) it was finished was prior to WWII. It appears to be almost literally unfired. A restoration job like that would cost more than it is worth, and that's in addition to the cost of the rough gun.

I have another with no history. On this second one, the usually strawed parts are blued. But again, how did it get to be so crispy looking? besides looking so crispy on the outside this one has a rather poor bore due to someone putting it away with corrosive priming gunk in the barrel. Why refinish and not clean up the barrel?

Was there a period between the two wars when the economics and incentives of refinishing were different than they are today?

Maybe we need a "History of Luger Refinishing, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"

[Thor]

I have expressed my opinion on this subject. I dont know the whys, wheres other things,I was not there when all this happened. I read books others have written that have done more research than me. I know how to do the metal prep, salt blue, fire blue, strawing, rust bluing, and how to shoot, fix some mechanical problems. I count these as a real blessing and an enjoyement. I will leave the deep thought musements to others. Beyond that, you will have to get other opinions on this. On another side note, Luke sent me a beautiful Early DWM to restore that was spotless and about 99% blued. Salt bluing on the entire Luger, a wonderful job, but not original and it was definitely a modern day job! That was the Bavarian Luger. Why would someone do this? They wanted a BLACK Luger I guess! Good luck!

[AGE]

Guys,

In the '60s you could get a pistol reblued for maybe $30-$35 or so. Of course you could buy them brand new for maybe $80 or so (brand new 1911A1s or SAAs). Lugers could be had for $40-50, but who wanted old foreign guns then. I wish I had bought a barrel full of Colt SAAs to resell today (or maybe tomorrow).

I had a number of 1911s reblued because they were worn GIs and I didn't want my guns to look like that, not necessarily because it was economical.

[Jan C Still]

SELECT MARKINGS, IMPERIAL MILITARY LUGERS, (all unit marked, show use, and in original condition)


1908 DWM (Based on 10 observations): dull left receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number sometimes with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1910 DWM (Based on 11 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1911 DWM (Based on 6 observations): sharp or dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1912 DWM (Based on 2 observations): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1913 DWM (Based on 5 observations): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate or faint barrel proof.

1914 DWM (Based on 2 observations): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1915 DWM (Based on 3 observations): dull to sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without or without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1916 DWM (Based on 4 observations): dull to sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate or faint barrel proof.

1917 DWM (Based on 1 observation): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1915 Long P08 DWM (Based on 1 observation): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1917 Long P08 DWM (Based on 4 observation): sharp or dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1911 Erfurt (Based on 2 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number without halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1912 Erfurt (Based on 5 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number without halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1913 Erfurt (Based on 5 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with or without halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1914 Erfurt (Based on 1 observation): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

Note: restoration of 1910 DWM eliminated barrel serial number and barrel gauge halo.

[Edward Tinker]

Boy that is the kind of sharing of information that is so nice, thanks a lot Jan!

[Dwight Gruber]

Jan, thank you very much for your careful observation and thorough assessment, your efforts are much appreciated. Could you make a similar assessment of parts serial# stamping, toggle proofs, and Erfurt proof/inspector parts stamps? Also, what characteristics should we look for in unit markings?

We may be onto something here, is there anyone who can do this with Weimar or Mauser Lugers, as well as less common contracts and variants?

--Dwight

[Luke]

This kind of information will be very useful to newer collectors who are the prime targets for unscrupulous Luger boosters.

My sincere thanks to Tom Armstrong and Bill Garrison for their straightforward answers to my initial inquiry, and to Jan Still for all of the good data on known-good Lugers. What a great effort! Without the help of conscientious collectors such as these folks, newer collectors would be at the mercy of the worst elements in collecting.

[Garfield]

Luke:

Good Hunting,

[John Sabato]

I would like to add my thanks to Jan Still, Garfield (William Garrison), and Tom Armstrong, for their efforts because this message thread is an example of exactly what the Lugerforum was intended for! Sharing of good information between concerned Luger enthusiasts.

Keep up the great work guys... This website is destined to be a universal knowledge center for the history of the manufacture and use of Lugers...

For those who haven't taken the time to notice the statistics, in the last 65 days since we opened the front door on this new forum, we have registered 436 members... and among them some of the most well known and prominent Luger experts in the world...all that on the strength of word of mouth referrals since we don't advertise...and while I have frequented many other gun related forums in the last 7 years working on the Internet, I have never seen another forum that comes close to this one...

[Luke]

John,

Ditto. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Luke