HE - 111 is no more!

G.T. · 07-11-2003, 09:55 AM

Hello to all members, For those of you who went to the airport on Sunday during the last World of Lugers get together... that wonderfully restored German WW2 HE - 111 bomber has crashed, I believe in Montana?.. both pilots were lost.... It is a sad day for all... they were based out of Mesa AZ ... take a little time, say a little prayer... till...later...GT

John Sabato · 07-11-2003, 10:49 AM

May God comfort the families and friends of the pilots... Unfortunately, I couldn't make that World of Lugers get together... those who did should treasure the fact that they were exposed to a real piece of history and the men who cared for her... I agree G.T. a sad day for all.

Edward Tinker · 07-16-2003, 06:28 AM

I missed this thread, WHAT A CRYING SHAME!!

Another piece of history lost and those pilots and their families

<img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> just horrible.

Very odd, to have gone into the plane, looked around, had our pictures taken.

Just a shame.

Ed

unspellable · 07-16-2003, 07:53 AM

Any details on what went wrong?

lugerholsterrepair · 07-16-2003, 01:43 PM

G.T. Thanks for the update...Sort of like shooting valuble collector Lugers, one broken part and she's scrap metal.

I can understand wanting to fly her but there was great risk...Certainly no disrespect to her brave pilots but how many of these were there in the World? Jerry Burney

G.T. · 07-16-2003, 02:05 PM

Hi Jerry & Ed! I kinda feel the same way, I wished that she would have stayed on the ground.... but I see the other side too, It's a plane when it flys, and they were pilots when they flew it! Living history is another term, perhaps they, the CAF, will review the flying aspect of a one of a kind warbird, and then again, maybe not... The AZ paper states that the pilots did a heroic job in missing populated areas... they truly were heros... The pictures Ed took really capture the beauty of this lost aircraft! Till....later...GT

Edward Tinker · 07-16-2003, 04:36 PM

She was just starting to take off, then we saw her land and went on a tour inside.

MG · 07-20-2003, 12:34 PM

Hello all,
This was a very said day and may God bless their loved ones in this their time of need.

News Links:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...necrash12.html

http://www.wyomingnews.com/more.asp?StoryID=6794

http://www.wyomingnews.com/more.asp?StoryID=6787

God Bless
Michael

saxman · 07-23-2003, 07:20 PM

How about that news article today about all the fully armed Luftwaffe planes they believe to be under the old East Berlin airfield in bunkers. I didn't realize it, but there are evidently scores of unexplored bunkers in Germany, because they built tens of thousands during the 11 years before the end of the war. Of course, the Germans will probably destroy them all rather than allow history to be preserved, in their misguided attempt to erase it.

Edward Tinker · 07-23-2003, 08:00 PM

When I was over there (1993-1999), I heard lots of stories like that, of how there were tanks and other equipment just buried. Of many underground bunkers and floors of buildings that were buried, blown up or access denied to the lower buildings. I don't know if I blame the gov't for getting rid of the bunkers and such, as a historian I hate it, but if you have to deal with the legalities of people getting hurt, people wanting to explore and the chance to just fill it in and never worry about it again.

On the other hand, I have gone into bunkers and explored many WW2 places while over there that are still accessible. Some areas I could not go into very deep, as they were filled in and it always made me wonder what was beyond that wall. I went into some bunkers on the coast of the Netherlands and it was interesting to see the signs, in German to stay out and the bunkers # / designation.

Here are some pictures of some tank traps near Aachen Germany I took this last spring.

There are still areas where these run and you feel part of history. Most have been taken out by farmers, and the local gov't simply because of the room they take up.

Also, every year you still hear about bombs being discovered when a building is being built, the bomb squad comes in and blows it in place or takes it away.

Johnny C. Kitchens · 07-23-2003, 09:40 PM

I wonder about these bunker stories. I saw where they openned the underground factory for the V-1 and V-2. Lot of bits and pieces laying around. They also dug into Hitler's bunker and found a few Stg-44s all rusted up. I actually heard stories of American weapons being hid in bunkers, in preparation for a possible war with the Russians. I think you have to put some of these stories in the same league as the stories you hear that go with some of these Lugers at gun shows... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

John Sabato · 07-24-2003, 08:31 AM

Johnny, the stories about American equipment being stored in bunkers in Germany and other European countries is not fiction. They are what is called "pre-positioned" war supplies and consist largely of food rations, ammunition stores and tactical vehicles in long term storage...

I am sure that there are some small arms and critical replacement parts as well... but don't think that these are facilities that nobody knows about. They contain materials that have to be refreshed every few years (or in some cases decades) because of technology changes and shelf life... at that time, they are usually issued for consumption, used for training or disposed of by surplus sale, cannibalized for parts, or destroyed ...depending on what it is... They are not leftovers of an old war, unless they are still considered useable and are leftover from the cold war...

Edward Tinker · 07-24-2003, 12:02 PM

The pre-positioned equipment is stored at Combat Equipment Companies. Through the 1990's I inspected seven of them every year for Physical Security. With the drawdown, five of them went away in my area of operations. They had everything you needed to provide a couple of battalions equipment, vehicles, tanks, weapons, supplies, food for specific type of units.
All very interesting, but since that time they have either moved to the US, are floating on ships, or some equipment has stayed there. They had full maintanance facilities to repair and test the equipment. {{Since the vast majority of the equipment is gone, I am not "giving" anything away.}}

BTW, while I was there they were selling excess Chevy and Dodge 3/4 ton 4x4's for $1,500, some had almost no miles and some had 60,000, as the vehicles were used for the old REFORGER Exercises and then later other exercises. I didn't buy one, although I could use one on the farm today!

Ed

07-11-2003, 09:55 AM	#1
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,528 Thanks: 1,334 Thanked 3,711 Times in 1,014 Posts	HE - 111 is no more! Hello to all members, For those of you who went to the airport on Sunday during the last World of Lugers get together... that wonderfully restored German WW2 HE - 111 bomber has crashed, I believe in Montana?.. both pilots were lost.... It is a sad day for all... they were based out of Mesa AZ ... take a little time, say a little prayer... till...later...GT

07-11-2003, 10:49 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	May God comfort the families and friends of the pilots... Unfortunately, I couldn't make that World of Lugers get together... those who did should treasure the fact that they were exposed to a real piece of history and the men who cared for her... I agree G.T. a sad day for all. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-16-2003, 06:28 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I missed this thread, WHAT A CRYING SHAME!! Another piece of history lost and those pilots and their families <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> just horrible. Very odd, to have gone into the plane, looked around, had our pictures taken. Just a shame. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-16-2003, 01:43 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	G.T. Thanks for the update...Sort of like shooting valuble collector Lugers, one broken part and she's scrap metal. I can understand wanting to fly her but there was great risk...Certainly no disrespect to her brave pilots but how many of these were there in the World? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-16-2003, 04:36 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	She was just starting to take off, then we saw her land and went on a tour inside. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-16-2003, 07:53 AM	#4
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Any details on what went wrong?

07-16-2003, 02:05 PM	#6
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,528 Thanks: 1,334 Thanked 3,711 Times in 1,014 Posts	Hi Jerry & Ed! I kinda feel the same way, I wished that she would have stayed on the ground.... but I see the other side too, It's a plane when it flys, and they were pilots when they flew it! Living history is another term, perhaps they, the CAF, will review the flying aspect of a one of a kind warbird, and then again, maybe not... The AZ paper states that the pilots did a heroic job in missing populated areas... they truly were heros... The pictures Ed took really capture the beauty of this lost aircraft! Till....later...GT

07-20-2003, 12:34 PM	#8
MG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello all, This was a very said day and may God bless their loved ones in this their time of need. News Links: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...necrash12.html http://www.wyomingnews.com/more.asp?StoryID=6794 http://www.wyomingnews.com/more.asp?StoryID=6787 God Bless Michael __________________ MG "Si vis pacem, para bellum" 'If you want peace,prepare for war'

07-23-2003, 07:20 PM	#9
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	How about that news article today about all the fully armed Luftwaffe planes they believe to be under the old East Berlin airfield in bunkers. I didn't realize it, but there are evidently scores of unexplored bunkers in Germany, because they built tens of thousands during the 11 years before the end of the war. Of course, the Germans will probably destroy them all rather than allow history to be preserved, in their misguided attempt to erase it. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

07-23-2003, 08:00 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	When I was over there (1993-1999), I heard lots of stories like that, of how there were tanks and other equipment just buried. Of many underground bunkers and floors of buildings that were buried, blown up or access denied to the lower buildings. I don't know if I blame the gov't for getting rid of the bunkers and such, as a historian I hate it, but if you have to deal with the legalities of people getting hurt, people wanting to explore and the chance to just fill it in and never worry about it again. On the other hand, I have gone into bunkers and explored many WW2 places while over there that are still accessible. Some areas I could not go into very deep, as they were filled in and it always made me wonder what was beyond that wall. I went into some bunkers on the coast of the Netherlands and it was interesting to see the signs, in German to stay out and the bunkers # / designation. Here are some pictures of some tank traps near Aachen Germany I took this last spring. There are still areas where these run and you feel part of history. Most have been taken out by farmers, and the local gov't simply because of the room they take up. Also, every year you still hear about bombs being discovered when a building is being built, the bomb squad comes in and blows it in place or takes it away. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-23-2003, 09:40 PM	#11
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	I wonder about these bunker stories. I saw where they openned the underground factory for the V-1 and V-2. Lot of bits and pieces laying around. They also dug into Hitler's bunker and found a few Stg-44s all rusted up. I actually heard stories of American weapons being hid in bunkers, in preparation for a possible war with the Russians. I think you have to put some of these stories in the same league as the stories you hear that go with some of these Lugers at gun shows... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

07-24-2003, 08:31 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Johnny, the stories about American equipment being stored in bunkers in Germany and other European countries is not fiction. They are what is called "pre-positioned" war supplies and consist largely of food rations, ammunition stores and tactical vehicles in long term storage... I am sure that there are some small arms and critical replacement parts as well... but don't think that these are facilities that nobody knows about. They contain materials that have to be refreshed every few years (or in some cases decades) because of technology changes and shelf life... at that time, they are usually issued for consumption, used for training or disposed of by surplus sale, cannibalized for parts, or destroyed ...depending on what it is... They are not leftovers of an old war, unless they are still considered useable and are leftover from the cold war... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-24-2003, 12:02 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	The pre-positioned equipment is stored at Combat Equipment Companies. Through the 1990's I inspected seven of them every year for Physical Security. With the drawdown, five of them went away in my area of operations. They had everything you needed to provide a couple of battalions equipment, vehicles, tanks, weapons, supplies, food for specific type of units. All very interesting, but since that time they have either moved to the US, are floating on ships, or some equipment has stayed there. They had full maintanance facilities to repair and test the equipment. {{Since the vast majority of the equipment is gone, I am not "giving" anything away.}} BTW, while I was there they were selling excess Chevy and Dodge 3/4 ton 4x4's for $1,500, some had almost no miles and some had 60,000, as the vehicles were used for the old REFORGER Exercises and then later other exercises. I didn't buy one, although I could use one on the farm today! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV