1916 DWM 9mm Full Rig value

Frank H · 01-27-2004, 12:12 PM

I need help. 1916 DWM, 9mm Artillery. About 80-85% blue, all matching numbers, one numbered mag, complete leather holster with mag pouches and correct numbered stock to the gun. It also has the origonal snail drum magazine, but not the loading tool for the drum. It has the small tool and cleaning rod. The fellow say it looks like someone took a cold blue pen to the side rail to touch it up. Bore is fairly bright with light pitting. The grips are in good shape with fine checkering. No unit markings. It is a single digit serial number, 6. Opinions as to value?
Thanks everyone.

John Sabato · 01-27-2004, 02:51 PM

You need to post photos for a real accurate value Frank, but if all the accessories are in good shape and numbered to the gun we are talking better than $3000 for this rig. How much more depends of verification of originality and condition, condition, condition...

IMHO,

Gun 1000 to 1800 or more
snail drum 900 to 1200 or more
stock with original holster? in good condition? matched to the gun? at least 600 to 900
an original loader? 500 to 750?

in other words... this rig is worth some real $$$

Big Norm would probably be able to give you a much closer estimate based on your description... watch for his comments...

and congrats!

George Anderson · 01-27-2004, 04:54 PM

Frank, check your private messages.

Big Norm · 01-28-2004, 08:48 PM

Frank,
My computer is in the repair shop and I am using library computer. So I am probably a little late in responding. As John S. said, pictures and condition mean a lot. However, if this is a real original rig, then there can be some forgiveness in condition.

Real original artillery holsters with all the attaching leather are a real hard find. Especially if they are in decent condition. To some guys, the year and the manufacturer mean a lot.

John is a little low on the high end of price for a snail drum with a dust cover and no dents. These are not numbered to the gun but are prized by Luger collectors. I would put the current range at $900 to 1400. Personally, I like the type 's and I would be careful on the type 2's because there are so many repros. Repros go for about $300-400 but I don't keep tract of repro snail drums. A dust cover adds more interest to the drum but not much more in price.

You said that the gun is all matching but that the mag is only numbered. Is that number the same as the guns number? The internet has taught me to watch words closely.

As you can see, more information is necessary and some pictures, if possible. If the Luger is an all matching 80-85% (with no pitting), matching mag and stock, original holster with all attaching leather and a snail drum. Then I would guess that John is about right. Maybe a tad low because of the snail drum. You have a lot of stuff there and the price is going to be high.
Big Norm

Edward Tinker · 01-28-2004, 11:43 PM

These are posted for Frank, although he does not own this yet, this is the one he is considering buying.

[ADMIN (JS) NOTE: These photos have been determined to be copyrighted material so they have been changed from being displayed to just links]

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...mm_para._3.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...mm_para._4.jpg

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...mm_para._5.jpg
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...mm_para._6.jpg

Imperial Arms · 01-29-2004, 02:00 AM

It is unfortunate that the pistol has lost some finish on the side rails, but the holster and stock are just gorgeous according to the image. The grips and magazine appear to be in great condition. Nonetheless, it is a wonderful matching rig and I am sure that Frank would be delighted if he can buy it at a reasonable price.

Good luck,
Albert

George Anderson · 01-29-2004, 02:51 AM

I think the mag pouch may be a reproduction and so I would be concerned about the holster, etc. May be completely off base on this but advise caution and close up pics.

John Sabato · 01-29-2004, 09:39 AM

i would have to see a much better focus photo up close of the leather items in order to pass a judgement on them, but they appear to be the same vintage in these grainy photos...

It is a fine looking rig for sure...

FINKO · 01-31-2004, 11:07 PM

I bought an Artilary Rig with 2 mags (non matching), a second issue snail drum, repro holster, stock, and leather, including snail drum cover, last year for $2100.00 and change. I thought it was fair. The Leather looks worn and brown, all "correct" for the rig. What do you guys think?

Best regards,

Navy · 02-01-2004, 09:41 AM

Agree with George; the pouch is repop; maybe problems with rest of the leather. Hard to tell from the pix.

Tom A.

Big Norm · 02-02-2004, 07:44 PM

I agree with the above members. I might add that the grips are either bleached or repro. The Lugers finish is about 80-85% as Frank said. I would like to see better pictures of the stock and its serial number as well as the proof marks. More pictures of the magazine and its base markings would be good. Pictures of the holsters markings would also be good. A closer look at the snail drum is also in order.

There is just too much missing in the pictures to make me feel comfortable with this rig. I guess that I would only feel good about putting my hard earned cash on the line if I held everything in my hands and examined what I was looking at. There is just too much potentially expensive stuff here to make a casual offer based on the information supplied.

I also have a personal hangup about getting too excited over a gun that the seller does not post a price on. Maybe other people have a different attitude about that. I just want to know if the Luger that I am looking at is a bargain, fairly priced or outrageous before I spend time debating on buying. Remember, most dealers will charge you for S&H, in both directions, if you return the gun.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 02-06-2004, 01:20 AM

After examining the extra pictures that Frank emailed to me, I have decided that
(1) the stock iron holding cup, the spare magazine pouch and possibly the leather that goes over the top of the holster holding the stock in place are repro.
(2) the grips at best are recheckered and at worst repro. Their condition is too good in comparision the the wear on the artillery. Particuarly on the barrel, rails and the side plate.
(3) I cannot identify the proof mark on the stock and no serial number on the stock iron was shown
(4) the spine of the magazine was either buffed or in some other way highly polished. The serial number on the wood bottom seems small and questionable. But I would accept it.
(5) the type 1 snail drum didn't have a lot of necessary pictures but I would accept it.
(6) no viewable or otherwise explained manufactures marking or date on the holster itself. This is unacceptible to me.

I advised Frank that for the $5000 sales price that I would run and not walk away from this deal. The leather is just a mix and match put together. But if emotion has taken hold, I would try for a price of $2000 to $2500. When I think of all the things that I could buy for $5000, I really turn negative on this rig.
Big Norm

Frank H · 02-06-2004, 11:52 AM

Thank's every for your help. I'm going to pass on this one. That darn #6 serial number just had me going! - a rig like that would be nice but for that price, it would have to be correct. Still -another learning tool.
Frank H

Big Norm · 02-06-2004, 04:55 PM

Frank,
Whew!!! For a while there I thought that you had already bought it. The selling price was just too much money for what you were going to get. Now I feel better. People helped me when I got started. So this is a little give back for the help that I got. When you get good, pass it along.
Big Norm

01-27-2004, 12:12 PM	#1
Frank H User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: N. FL Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1916 DWM 9mm Full Rig value I need help. 1916 DWM, 9mm Artillery. About 80-85% blue, all matching numbers, one numbered mag, complete leather holster with mag pouches and correct numbered stock to the gun. It also has the origonal snail drum magazine, but not the loading tool for the drum. It has the small tool and cleaning rod. The fellow say it looks like someone took a cold blue pen to the side rail to touch it up. Bore is fairly bright with light pitting. The grips are in good shape with fine checkering. No unit markings. It is a single digit serial number, 6. Opinions as to value? Thanks everyone.

01-27-2004, 02:51 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	You need to post photos for a real accurate value Frank, but if all the accessories are in good shape and numbered to the gun we are talking better than $3000 for this rig. How much more depends of verification of originality and condition, condition, condition... IMHO, Gun 1000 to 1800 or more snail drum 900 to 1200 or more stock with original holster? in good condition? matched to the gun? at least 600 to 900 an original loader? 500 to 750? in other words... this rig is worth some real $$$ Big Norm would probably be able to give you a much closer estimate based on your description... watch for his comments... and congrats! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-28-2004, 11:43 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	These are posted for Frank, although he does not own this yet, this is the one he is considering buying. [ADMIN (JS) NOTE: These photos have been determined to be copyrighted material so they have been changed from being displayed to just links] http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...mm_para._3.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...mm_para._4.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...mm_para._5.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...mm_para._6.jpg __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-29-2004, 09:39 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	i would have to see a much better focus photo up close of the leather items in order to pass a judgement on them, but they appear to be the same vintage in these grainy photos... It is a fine looking rig for sure... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-31-2004, 11:07 PM	#9
FINKO User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I bought an Artilary Rig with 2 mags (non matching), a second issue snail drum, repro holster, stock, and leather, including snail drum cover, last year for $2100.00 and change. I thought it was fair. The Leather looks worn and brown, all "correct" for the rig. What do you guys think? Best regards, __________________ "Der Waffen Sammler"

01-27-2004, 04:54 PM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Frank, check your private messages.

01-28-2004, 08:48 PM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Frank, My computer is in the repair shop and I am using library computer. So I am probably a little late in responding. As John S. said, pictures and condition mean a lot. However, if this is a real original rig, then there can be some forgiveness in condition. Real original artillery holsters with all the attaching leather are a real hard find. Especially if they are in decent condition. To some guys, the year and the manufacturer mean a lot. John is a little low on the high end of price for a snail drum with a dust cover and no dents. These are not numbered to the gun but are prized by Luger collectors. I would put the current range at $900 to 1400. Personally, I like the type 's and I would be careful on the type 2's because there are so many repros. Repros go for about $300-400 but I don't keep tract of repro snail drums. A dust cover adds more interest to the drum but not much more in price. You said that the gun is all matching but that the mag is only numbered. Is that number the same as the guns number? The internet has taught me to watch words closely. As you can see, more information is necessary and some pictures, if possible. If the Luger is an all matching 80-85% (with no pitting), matching mag and stock, original holster with all attaching leather and a snail drum. Then I would guess that John is about right. Maybe a tad low because of the snail drum. You have a lot of stuff there and the price is going to be high. Big Norm

01-29-2004, 02:00 AM	#6
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	It is unfortunate that the pistol has lost some finish on the side rails, but the holster and stock are just gorgeous according to the image. The grips and magazine appear to be in great condition. Nonetheless, it is a wonderful matching rig and I am sure that Frank would be delighted if he can buy it at a reasonable price. Good luck, Albert

01-29-2004, 02:51 AM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I think the mag pouch may be a reproduction and so I would be concerned about the holster, etc. May be completely off base on this but advise caution and close up pics.

02-01-2004, 09:41 AM	#10
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Agree with George; the pouch is repop; maybe problems with rest of the leather. Hard to tell from the pix. Tom A.

02-02-2004, 07:44 PM	#11
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I agree with the above members. I might add that the grips are either bleached or repro. The Lugers finish is about 80-85% as Frank said. I would like to see better pictures of the stock and its serial number as well as the proof marks. More pictures of the magazine and its base markings would be good. Pictures of the holsters markings would also be good. A closer look at the snail drum is also in order. There is just too much missing in the pictures to make me feel comfortable with this rig. I guess that I would only feel good about putting my hard earned cash on the line if I held everything in my hands and examined what I was looking at. There is just too much potentially expensive stuff here to make a casual offer based on the information supplied. I also have a personal hangup about getting too excited over a gun that the seller does not post a price on. Maybe other people have a different attitude about that. I just want to know if the Luger that I am looking at is a bargain, fairly priced or outrageous before I spend time debating on buying. Remember, most dealers will charge you for S&H, in both directions, if you return the gun. Big Norm

02-06-2004, 01:20 AM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	After examining the extra pictures that Frank emailed to me, I have decided that (1) the stock iron holding cup, the spare magazine pouch and possibly the leather that goes over the top of the holster holding the stock in place are repro. (2) the grips at best are recheckered and at worst repro. Their condition is too good in comparision the the wear on the artillery. Particuarly on the barrel, rails and the side plate. (3) I cannot identify the proof mark on the stock and no serial number on the stock iron was shown (4) the spine of the magazine was either buffed or in some other way highly polished. The serial number on the wood bottom seems small and questionable. But I would accept it. (5) the type 1 snail drum didn't have a lot of necessary pictures but I would accept it. (6) no viewable or otherwise explained manufactures marking or date on the holster itself. This is unacceptible to me. I advised Frank that for the $5000 sales price that I would run and not walk away from this deal. The leather is just a mix and match put together. But if emotion has taken hold, I would try for a price of $2000 to $2500. When I think of all the things that I could buy for $5000, I really turn negative on this rig. Big Norm

02-06-2004, 11:52 AM	#13
Frank H User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: N. FL Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank's every for your help. I'm going to pass on this one. That darn #6 serial number just had me going! - a rig like that would be nice but for that price, it would have to be correct. Still -another learning tool. Frank H

02-06-2004, 04:55 PM	#14
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Frank, Whew!!! For a while there I thought that you had already bought it. The selling price was just too much money for what you were going to get. Now I feel better. People helped me when I got started. So this is a little give back for the help that I got. When you get good, pass it along. Big Norm