State Law Problems

Sgt Art · 03-25-2003, 02:18 PM

I am trying to purchase a 1917 dated P.08 from an individual who lives in Illinois. I live in South Carolina. I have a C&R FFL, however the seller says he can only ship to an FFL due to Illinois not recognizing C&R status because the pistol uses modern ammo. As the gun is leaving his state, I don't think this applies. Anyone know about this?

Best,

Art

Frank · 03-25-2003, 03:20 PM

Hey Sarge, I think it's a bunch of bunk!! I have purchased C&R Pistols from Illinois witout any of that sort of clap trap. It could be that the seller only wants to deal with Class 01 Dealers and this is his way to eliminate the Class 03's

Good Luck!!

Luke · 03-25-2003, 06:20 PM

Sgt Art -

I am in North Carolina and have purchased several Lugers from Bob Simpson in Illinois with only my C&R. No problem.

Frank is correct; something does not smell right here.

Good luck.

Luke

Sgt Art · 03-25-2003, 07:57 PM

Thanks guys, I appreciate that. I happened onto Simpson's site and sent them an email asking if they would ship me a Luger (some selection he's got!) on my C&R, they haven't responded yet. I talked with the seller some more and I think he's just new at shipping interstate and dealing with some pretty restrictive laws in an urban area. I even found a site with Illinois firearms laws that indicates most of illegal stuff doesn't pertain to sales being shipped out of state. I think we're geehawing now. Thank G-d we live in the South where not all have lost their minds. Yeah, like I'm gonna go hold up a convenience store with a $1,000 + Luger artillery model.

Stu · 03-25-2003, 08:47 PM

I used to live in Illinois and there are no IL state restrictions that apply to that type of transaction, unless you live in Chicago. A C&R transaction into or out of the state is the same as nearly anywhere else. Thee shouldn't be any problem.

Navy · 03-25-2003, 09:48 PM

Go to the ATF website; its all right there.
A Type 03 can acquire a C&R from anyone interstate that is legally possessing the piece.

Tom A

Pete Ebbink · 03-25-2003, 09:52 PM

BATF at :

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/index.htm

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 03-25-2003, 11:52 PM

I live in Michigan and C&R licenses are not recognized between two Michigan residences. I think that California has the same law. In Michigan, the buyer must have a purchase permit to buy a pistol from a Michigan residence or company. No PURCHASE permit is required if buying a pistol using a C&R from an out of state seller. But registration IS required after the purchase. Perhaps this is what your confused seller has in mind.

Some may think that these Michigan restrictions are inhibiting. But they do serve the purpose of telling the buyer that the gun is not stolen. It also gives me a small chance of recovering my gun if its stolen from me. So there are plus' and minus' involved. I figure that since there are no fees involved, what the heck, do it.

My problem is trying to understand New Jersey law. I THINK that there, the buyer must have a type 01 federal license for cross state selling and, maybe, buying.

Good luck in purchasing your trophy!
Big Norm

Big Norm · 03-26-2003, 12:23 AM

I just had a second thought on this matter. Maybe the seller does not have a federal license. He can not ship across state lines without one. You only said that you had a federal license.

I believe that a C&R holder can not buy a pistol in another state and carry it across state lines. Technically, I believe the pistol must be shipped from one FFL holder to another FFL holder. It gets a litle hairy here. If the gun is in a locked case and you are stopped for, say, a traffic ticket, then a police officer would need a court order to open the locked case without your permission. So don't have your gun in the open.

Another problem arises if you are going to a gun show and you are carrying a large sum of money in hopes of buying an expensive Luger. That money can be confiscated by the police on suspicion of being drug money. Your chances of getting that money back is slim.

Its a tough world out there. Even honest people can get themselves in trouble. So watch the traffic law, don't drink at your favorite gun shows and keep your guns out of sight until you get home.
Big Norm

Mauper · 03-26-2003, 12:03 PM

I don't think the seller needs a FFL to ship,--A handgun would have to go UPS or Fed-x but a long gun can be shipped USPO.Just the person that it's shipped to must have a FFL(01 or 03).I'm I right on this?

John Sabato · 03-26-2003, 01:05 PM

I agree, as long as you have a copy of the receiving end's C&R license (with an original signature), that is all that is needed to ship a C&R firearm one way... no FFL license is required of any type on the shipping end...

CAVEAT! Make sure that the state of Illinois doesn't have some kind of law prohibiting this shipment... They might have a problem because there would be no way for them to know the gun is no longer in Illinois... Guns are registered there and you must have a firearms ID to purchase if my memory serves correctly...They have some pretty tight gun laws there... not a very firearm friendly state.

Stu · 03-26-2003, 05:18 PM

I bought and sold with a C&R in IL without problem. As long as the recipient has sent a legitimate, signed, FFL, (01 or 03), the seller can ship.

As far as the general law in IL as far as I remember guns aren't registered in most of IL, only pisols in the city of Chicago I believe, (and I think it's almost impossible to register a pistol that wasn't in the city before the law was introduced).

To buy a gun in IL you need to have applied for and obtained an F.O.I.D. card, (firearms owners identification card). They do a criminal background check and similar things when you apply, it's a 'shall issue' id without which it's impossible to do anything to do with guns within the state, (buy ammo etc).

Sgt Art · 03-26-2003, 07:19 PM

I appreciate the answers to my question and did little leg work of my own. I called Bob Simpson (Simpson Ltd) that Luke mentioned in his post about 3 minutes ago. All he needs to ship is a C&R on file and the money of course and we're good to go! That pretty well answers my question as I would consider him an expert on the subject. Again, Thanks!

03-25-2003, 02:18 PM	#1
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	State Law Problems I am trying to purchase a 1917 dated P.08 from an individual who lives in Illinois. I live in South Carolina. I have a C&R FFL, however the seller says he can only ship to an FFL due to Illinois not recognizing C&R status because the pistol uses modern ammo. As the gun is leaving his state, I don't think this applies. Anyone know about this? Best, Art

03-25-2003, 06:20 PM	#3
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Sgt Art - I am in North Carolina and have purchased several Lugers from Bob Simpson in Illinois with only my C&R. No problem. Frank is correct; something does not smell right here. Good luck. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

03-26-2003, 01:05 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	I agree, as long as you have a copy of the receiving end's C&R license (with an original signature), that is all that is needed to ship a C&R firearm one way... no FFL license is required of any type on the shipping end... CAVEAT! Make sure that the state of Illinois doesn't have some kind of law prohibiting this shipment... They might have a problem because there would be no way for them to know the gun is no longer in Illinois... Guns are registered there and you must have a firearms ID to purchase if my memory serves correctly...They have some pretty tight gun laws there... not a very firearm friendly state. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-25-2003, 03:20 PM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Hey Sarge, I think it's a bunch of bunk!! I have purchased C&R Pistols from Illinois witout any of that sort of clap trap. It could be that the seller only wants to deal with Class 01 Dealers and this is his way to eliminate the Class 03's Good Luck!!

03-25-2003, 07:57 PM	#4
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks guys, I appreciate that. I happened onto Simpson's site and sent them an email asking if they would ship me a Luger (some selection he's got!) on my C&R, they haven't responded yet. I talked with the seller some more and I think he's just new at shipping interstate and dealing with some pretty restrictive laws in an urban area. I even found a site with Illinois firearms laws that indicates most of illegal stuff doesn't pertain to sales being shipped out of state. I think we're geehawing now. Thank G-d we live in the South where not all have lost their minds. Yeah, like I'm gonna go hold up a convenience store with a $1,000 + Luger artillery model.

03-25-2003, 08:47 PM	#5
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	I used to live in Illinois and there are no IL state restrictions that apply to that type of transaction, unless you live in Chicago. A C&R transaction into or out of the state is the same as nearly anywhere else. Thee shouldn't be any problem.

03-25-2003, 09:48 PM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Go to the ATF website; its all right there. A Type 03 can acquire a C&R from anyone interstate that is legally possessing the piece. Tom A

03-25-2003, 09:52 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	BATF at : http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/index.htm Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-25-2003, 11:52 PM	#8
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I live in Michigan and C&R licenses are not recognized between two Michigan residences. I think that California has the same law. In Michigan, the buyer must have a purchase permit to buy a pistol from a Michigan residence or company. No PURCHASE permit is required if buying a pistol using a C&R from an out of state seller. But registration IS required after the purchase. Perhaps this is what your confused seller has in mind. Some may think that these Michigan restrictions are inhibiting. But they do serve the purpose of telling the buyer that the gun is not stolen. It also gives me a small chance of recovering my gun if its stolen from me. So there are plus' and minus' involved. I figure that since there are no fees involved, what the heck, do it. My problem is trying to understand New Jersey law. I THINK that there, the buyer must have a type 01 federal license for cross state selling and, maybe, buying. Good luck in purchasing your trophy! Big Norm

03-26-2003, 12:23 AM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I just had a second thought on this matter. Maybe the seller does not have a federal license. He can not ship across state lines without one. You only said that you had a federal license. I believe that a C&R holder can not buy a pistol in another state and carry it across state lines. Technically, I believe the pistol must be shipped from one FFL holder to another FFL holder. It gets a litle hairy here. If the gun is in a locked case and you are stopped for, say, a traffic ticket, then a police officer would need a court order to open the locked case without your permission. So don't have your gun in the open. Another problem arises if you are going to a gun show and you are carrying a large sum of money in hopes of buying an expensive Luger. That money can be confiscated by the police on suspicion of being drug money. Your chances of getting that money back is slim. Its a tough world out there. Even honest people can get themselves in trouble. So watch the traffic law, don't drink at your favorite gun shows and keep your guns out of sight until you get home. Big Norm

03-26-2003, 12:03 PM	#10
Mauper User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Cape Cod, Ma. Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't think the seller needs a FFL to ship,--A handgun would have to go UPS or Fed-x but a long gun can be shipped USPO.Just the person that it's shipped to must have a FFL(01 or 03).I'm I right on this?

03-26-2003, 05:18 PM	#12
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	I bought and sold with a C&R in IL without problem. As long as the recipient has sent a legitimate, signed, FFL, (01 or 03), the seller can ship. As far as the general law in IL as far as I remember guns aren't registered in most of IL, only pisols in the city of Chicago I believe, (and I think it's almost impossible to register a pistol that wasn't in the city before the law was introduced). To buy a gun in IL you need to have applied for and obtained an F.O.I.D. card, (firearms owners identification card). They do a criminal background check and similar things when you apply, it's a 'shall issue' id without which it's impossible to do anything to do with guns within the state, (buy ammo etc).

03-26-2003, 07:19 PM	#13
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I appreciate the answers to my question and did little leg work of my own. I called Bob Simpson (Simpson Ltd) that Luke mentioned in his post about 3 minutes ago. All he needs to ship is a C&R on file and the money of course and we're good to go! That pretty well answers my question as I would consider him an expert on the subject. Again, Thanks!