"made in Germany

Marcus · 05-09-2003, 11:30 AM

I wonder if someone can tell me anything about a 1918 dated Erfurt Luger I recently purchased. In addition to all the usual markings it is also stamped "made in Germany", in English oddly enough. I read somewhere that many of the Lugers made in 1918 at Erfurt were actually stamped 1917. The serial number on my gun is only 5112 which would be consistent with a small production run of guns dated 1918, but why the "made in Germany" stamp? I would have to guess that it was a gun that was not released to the military before the end of the war but rather stamped "made in Germany" before being exported. Have you ever heard of this occurring? It was my understanding that most guns released after the war were given a 1920 date, sometimes as a "double date". Any insights or information would be appreciated.

John Sabato · 05-09-2003, 11:50 AM

Marcus,

Welcome to the Lugerforum...

I will let one of the guys who specializes in that period of Luger production answer your questions... the answers will be more definitive.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 05-09-2003, 12:43 PM

Marcus; I can help with some of your questions. I have never read where some guns made in 1918 were stamped 1917. The made in Germany was added to guns exported after the war. A double date gun was stamped with the 20 to denote government property so it could be identified if stolen, or had not been turned in after the war. (hence, no 1920.
Lonnie

Jim Keenan · 05-09-2003, 02:44 PM

U.S. law requires all products imported into the U.S. to bear a marking, on the product or package, stating the country in which it was made. This law applied to guns prior to 1968, when the import law for guns was changed to require the name and address (usually abbreviated) of the importer and the gun caliber). This is generally called "the import mark". This change can help pin down an approximate date of importation.

The only things certain is that a pistol marked "Germany" or "Made in Germany" was imported sometime before 1968, and that the pistol in question was marked by an importer, not by the factory.

Jim

Edward Tinker · 05-09-2003, 02:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I wonder if someone can tell me anything about a 1918 dated Erfurt Luger I recently purchased. In addition to all the usual markings it is also stamped "made in Germany", in English oddly enough. I read somewhere that many of the Lugers made in 1918 at Erfurt were actually stamped 1917. The serial number on my gun is only 5112 which would be consistent with a small production run of guns dated 1918, but why the "made in Germany" stamp? ... It was my understanding that most guns released after the war were given a 1920 date, sometimes as a "double date"...<hr /></blockquote>Hello Marcus and welcome!

I just read the story about the "possibility" of "some" Lugers made in 1918 at Erfurt were actually stamped 1917 in Walters, the Luger Story. One of those theories, that is hard to tell if true.

As Lonnie stated, the 1920 was a property marking by the Reichswehr, although many guns did not get stamped. Then other guns were sold trying to generate funds for the company, and so the Made In Germany was stamped as an importing stamp for the USA.

Ed

Marcus · 05-09-2003, 05:39 PM

Thanks for the comments everyone. BTW Ed is right about where I got the idea that 1918 production at Erfurt was stamped 1917. I think he goes so far to say that virtually all 1918s were back dated.
Marcus

Lugerdoc · 05-10-2003, 09:26 AM

Marcus, I can think of any reason that the Government arsenal at Erfurt would want to back date any of their 1918 PO8 production. It's quite possible, that if some 1917 dated receivers were left over at the end of that year, that Erfurt would use them up in their early 1918 production. I'm quite confident that this luger would have been delivered to the military if completed before 11/11/18. Whether it was actully issued, is hard to say, but it must have been in good shape at the war's end and was marked for export to the US rather than being destroyed. TH

Marcus · 05-12-2003, 10:51 AM

P.S. Another thing about this gun is that it is 7.65 mm, not 9 mm. I thought all 1918 Erfurts were 9 mm. My guess is that at the same time it was marked for export it was given a new barrel and rechambered to comply with the postwar specs. If that is true though, when they did it they did it well enough (including the barrel serial stamp) to fool the local "expert" to declare it was 100% original. This supposed "expert" also claimed that the Germany military in WW1 was issuing these 7.65 mm guns along with the 9 mm, trusting the soldiers to know what caliber they had to shoot, even though there were no external marking. This "expert" also claimed that .30 caliber Luger ammo was nearly impossible to find. The old gentleman lost his expert status with me when I found at least 2 different brands of 30 Luger readily available in the other local shops.
The last chapter of this story is that the gun is not a shooter. Apparent at some point someone messed up the chamber so that the cases expand and there is not enough recoil transmitter to work the action. I got my money back and this gun is out of my life.

Lugerdoc · 05-12-2003, 10:59 AM

Marcus, Whoever changed the barrel to 7.65mm probably neglected to change the 9mm recoil spring. TH

05-09-2003, 11:30 AM	#1
Marcus User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"made in Germany I wonder if someone can tell me anything about a 1918 dated Erfurt Luger I recently purchased. In addition to all the usual markings it is also stamped "made in Germany", in English oddly enough. I read somewhere that many of the Lugers made in 1918 at Erfurt were actually stamped 1917. The serial number on my gun is only 5112 which would be consistent with a small production run of guns dated 1918, but why the "made in Germany" stamp? I would have to guess that it was a gun that was not released to the military before the end of the war but rather stamped "made in Germany" before being exported. Have you ever heard of this occurring? It was my understanding that most guns released after the war were given a 1920 date, sometimes as a "double date". Any insights or information would be appreciated.

05-09-2003, 11:50 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Marcus, Welcome to the Lugerforum... I will let one of the guys who specializes in that period of Luger production answer your questions... the answers will be more definitive. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-09-2003, 12:43 PM	#3
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Marcus; I can help with some of your questions. I have never read where some guns made in 1918 were stamped 1917. The made in Germany was added to guns exported after the war. A double date gun was stamped with the 20 to denote government property so it could be identified if stolen, or had not been turned in after the war. (hence, no 1920. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

05-09-2003, 02:46 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I wonder if someone can tell me anything about a 1918 dated Erfurt Luger I recently purchased. In addition to all the usual markings it is also stamped "made in Germany", in English oddly enough. I read somewhere that many of the Lugers made in 1918 at Erfurt were actually stamped 1917. The serial number on my gun is only 5112 which would be consistent with a small production run of guns dated 1918, but why the "made in Germany" stamp? ... It was my understanding that most guns released after the war were given a 1920 date, sometimes as a "double date"...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hello Marcus and welcome! I just read the story about the "possibility" of "some" Lugers made in 1918 at Erfurt were actually stamped 1917 in Walters, the Luger Story. One of those theories, that is hard to tell if true. As Lonnie stated, the 1920 was a property marking by the Reichswehr, although many guns did not get stamped. Then other guns were sold trying to generate funds for the company, and so the Made In Germany was stamped as an importing stamp for the USA. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-10-2003, 09:26 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Marcus, I can think of any reason that the Government arsenal at Erfurt would want to back date any of their 1918 PO8 production. It's quite possible, that if some 1917 dated receivers were left over at the end of that year, that Erfurt would use them up in their early 1918 production. I'm quite confident that this luger would have been delivered to the military if completed before 11/11/18. Whether it was actully issued, is hard to say, but it must have been in good shape at the war's end and was marked for export to the US rather than being destroyed. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-09-2003, 02:44 PM	#4
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	U.S. law requires all products imported into the U.S. to bear a marking, on the product or package, stating the country in which it was made. This law applied to guns prior to 1968, when the import law for guns was changed to require the name and address (usually abbreviated) of the importer and the gun caliber). This is generally called "the import mark". This change can help pin down an approximate date of importation. The only things certain is that a pistol marked "Germany" or "Made in Germany" was imported sometime before 1968, and that the pistol in question was marked by an importer, not by the factory. Jim

05-09-2003, 05:39 PM	#6
Marcus User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the comments everyone. BTW Ed is right about where I got the idea that 1918 production at Erfurt was stamped 1917. I think he goes so far to say that virtually all 1918s were back dated. Marcus

05-12-2003, 10:51 AM	#8
Marcus User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	P.S. Another thing about this gun is that it is 7.65 mm, not 9 mm. I thought all 1918 Erfurts were 9 mm. My guess is that at the same time it was marked for export it was given a new barrel and rechambered to comply with the postwar specs. If that is true though, when they did it they did it well enough (including the barrel serial stamp) to fool the local "expert" to declare it was 100% original. This supposed "expert" also claimed that the Germany military in WW1 was issuing these 7.65 mm guns along with the 9 mm, trusting the soldiers to know what caliber they had to shoot, even though there were no external marking. This "expert" also claimed that .30 caliber Luger ammo was nearly impossible to find. The old gentleman lost his expert status with me when I found at least 2 different brands of 30 Luger readily available in the other local shops. The last chapter of this story is that the gun is not a shooter. Apparent at some point someone messed up the chamber so that the cases expand and there is not enough recoil transmitter to work the action. I got my money back and this gun is out of my life.

05-12-2003, 10:59 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Marcus, Whoever changed the barrel to 7.65mm probably neglected to change the 9mm recoil spring. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net