DWM 1915...might snag but...

Bob in OH · 05-14-2003, 10:00 PM

Got a call from a man who wants to sell his stepfather's luger. While I have several nazi lugers, what should I look for in a 1915 for originality.... Buyer says all-matching, 90% original, $750... (h-block, 3-digit)

Wood Mag??
Mag w/ SN and alpha?
SN inside the side plate?
Numbered inside?
Grips numbered?
What else to look for??

Jim Keenan · 05-14-2003, 11:31 PM

Look for signs of buffing and reblue, mainly rounded corners instead of sharp, dished holes, and bluing inside the gun. Early Lugers were all rust blued and they did not blue inside the gun. Also look for signs of cold blue, including the "smell" test.

Then look for indications of misuse, like battered parts, dings and nicks beyond normal wear (gun used to drive fence wire staples), etc.

Military Lugers should have the part numbers visible; commercial Lugers have most of them hidden.

Matching magazines are nice, but I would not turn down a nice Luger because of a non-matching mag.

The price is probably OK if the gun is 90% and all original. If it is reworked or reblued, it is too high. See if there is a holster with it and get it included.

Jim

Evan Duke · 05-14-2003, 11:39 PM

Bob,just about every part on that 1915 luger should have the last 2 digits of the serial number stamped on them.The hold open will be stamped, the inside of the wood grips will be stamped,the under side of the barrel near the frame will have the whole serial number stamped on it.The optional parts may be the magazine release and the firing pin.The magazine should have a wood bottom if it is stamped with the matching number, that is a big +. Hope this helps. Evan

kidvett · 05-15-2003, 12:30 AM

Bob,

Look for numbers of course! I mean matched numbers & also same dimensions of numbers ( very easy to re-stamp Lugers ) Also for parts fit like the barrel/receiver mark. Correct proofmarks on that DWM ( ? ) and sharpness of those...

Sorry I did not have a PIC of a DWM close by...Here a PIC of an important area of any Luger...from a blank chamber Simson...

kidvett <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Big Norm · 05-15-2003, 07:28 AM

Bob,
the nice thing about Imperial Lugers as versus a Nazi Era Luger is the consistency of production all the bluing was the same. The size of the numbering is the same from one gun to the next. A 1913 Erfurt will compare to a 1918 Erfurt. A 1912 DWM will compare to a 1917 DWM. An Erfurts proof marks will be different from a DWM because the Erfurt was made at the royal arsenal and DWM was made by a private company. Erfurts will have crown inspectors marks all over the place including the grip screws. But don't reject the gun if the grip screws don't have the proof marks though.
The remarks by the above people are good. But I dont think I would kick the gun out of bed if the grips did not have matching numbers. As a collector, I usually keep 5-10 recheckered unnumbered original grips around to replace broken grips. So if the grips are repros or have the million dollar chip up by the saftey, that might influence the price a bit but not necessarily be a cause for rejection. Ebay has tons of original grips for sale. A matching magazine is a plus but I would not reject the gun if the mag was a repro or a mismatch. Check the bore. Sometimes they are really bad on WW1 guns. The ammo of that period wasn't so good.
Something that would cause me to reject a gun would be bad outside pitting. Thats right up there with a mismatched gun. Then there is the matter of whether or not you like the general appearance of the gun. At $750, that is not a bad general price if you approve of the general looks of the gun.
Big Norm

RockinWR · 05-15-2003, 03:03 PM

Bob,
* Don't forget the WW1 firing pin will be unflutted & was issued with the last 2 digits of the S/N. An Erfurt model will also be Crown/ Letter marked.
* Other internal serial numbered small parts are the trigger(under the side plate) & the hold open bearing the last two digits of the gun S/N.
* Wood bottom mag base on a folded sheet metal, tin colored, single side pinned mag tube. DWM will have the complete S/N with the lower case alpha block letter, if applicable, marked on the base & no proof acceptance stamps. Erfurt will have same + one or two Crown/letter(s). acceptance stamps.
* I've heard no firm consensus on inside side plate numbering for WW1 production. I've seen single digit alpha or numeric inside side plate marks attributed to the Mfg.'s (worker's) interim inspection/acceptance of the individual small part. May see more than one mark, each randomly placed.
* WW1 issued grips were S/N'd and usually had a Crown/letter acceptance IMO.
* Trust this helps.
RockinWR

Orvis25 · 05-16-2003, 01:53 PM

Can someone explain the "Smell test" for rebluing

John Sabato · 05-16-2003, 02:33 PM

The smell test is used to detect the presence of "cold blue" solutions such as:

that have been used on a firearm to provide protection to areas that have been worn down to bare metal...OR make worn areas look a little more minty to a potential buyer...

Cold blue solution is made by several vendors but the one thing they have in commom is the main ingredient... Copper Sulphate (and possibly some sulphur). Buy yourself a small bottle of this stuff (good for use on working firearms for the first stated reason) and use it on a degreased steel (not aluminum) gun according to instructions on the bottle... the results are certainly blue or black but accompanying the color is a fragrance you won't soon forget... it is something akin to rotten eggs but not quite that strong. This odor NEVER goes completely away. If you suspect that a firearm has had this solution applied to "enhance" its condition for sale, wipe it down with a dry rag and then rub the suspected area rapidly with your fingers to create a little friction... and then quickly bring it to your nose. One Whiff is all it takes in most cases to determine if the finish is original

or doctored

.

The smell might also be described as the exactly the opposite of the "sweet" smell of

...

Anyone else care to venture their impression of this odor for the new guys?

Edward Tinker · 05-16-2003, 03:21 PM

Thanksgiving mornings, after going duck hunting with my uncle and grandfather, then cleaning the shotguns before noon.

Hugh · 05-17-2003, 10:43 AM

AAAAAAAAH boyhood memories........the sweet smell of Hoppes #9.....nothing can compare. Sometimes I just go in the gun room and open up the bottle to take a sniff.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

ViggoG · 05-17-2003, 11:15 PM

Hugh,

Just what bottle?
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sometimes I just go in the gun room and open up the bottle to take a sniff.
<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />
And snif or snifter?, of what?

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
ViggoG

Hugh · 05-18-2003, 03:38 PM

<img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />
Viggo, "The Famous Grouse", what else?
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Sgt Art · 05-19-2003, 05:12 PM

Famous Grouse? Sound slike a W.E.B. Griffin fan.

05-14-2003, 10:00 PM	#1
Bob in OH User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NE OH Posts: 129 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	DWM 1915...might snag but... Got a call from a man who wants to sell his stepfather's luger. While I have several nazi lugers, what should I look for in a 1915 for originality.... Buyer says all-matching, 90% original, $750... (h-block, 3-digit) Wood Mag?? Mag w/ SN and alpha? SN inside the side plate? Numbered inside? Grips numbered? What else to look for??

05-16-2003, 02:33 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	The smell test is used to detect the presence of "cold blue" solutions such as: that have been used on a firearm to provide protection to areas that have been worn down to bare metal...OR make worn areas look a little more minty to a potential buyer... Cold blue solution is made by several vendors but the one thing they have in commom is the main ingredient... Copper Sulphate (and possibly some sulphur). Buy yourself a small bottle of this stuff (good for use on working firearms for the first stated reason) and use it on a degreased steel (not aluminum) gun according to instructions on the bottle... the results are certainly blue or black but accompanying the color is a fragrance you won't soon forget... it is something akin to rotten eggs but not quite that strong. This odor NEVER goes completely away. If you suspect that a firearm has had this solution applied to "enhance" its condition for sale, wipe it down with a dry rag and then rub the suspected area rapidly with your fingers to create a little friction... and then quickly bring it to your nose. One Whiff is all it takes in most cases to determine if the finish is original or doctored . The smell might also be described as the exactly the opposite of the "sweet" smell of ... Anyone else care to venture their impression of this odor for the new guys? <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-17-2003, 10:43 AM	#10
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	AAAAAAAAH boyhood memories........the sweet smell of Hoppes #9.....nothing can compare. Sometimes I just go in the gun room and open up the bottle to take a sniff. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

05-17-2003, 11:15 PM	#11
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hugh, Just what bottle? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Sometimes I just go in the gun room and open up the bottle to take a sniff. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> And snif or snifter?, of what? <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> ViggoG

05-18-2003, 03:38 PM	#12
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	<img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> Viggo, "The Famous Grouse", what else? <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

05-14-2003, 11:31 PM	#2
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Look for signs of buffing and reblue, mainly rounded corners instead of sharp, dished holes, and bluing inside the gun. Early Lugers were all rust blued and they did not blue inside the gun. Also look for signs of cold blue, including the "smell" test. Then look for indications of misuse, like battered parts, dings and nicks beyond normal wear (gun used to drive fence wire staples), etc. Military Lugers should have the part numbers visible; commercial Lugers have most of them hidden. Matching magazines are nice, but I would not turn down a nice Luger because of a non-matching mag. The price is probably OK if the gun is 90% and all original. If it is reworked or reblued, it is too high. See if there is a holster with it and get it included. Jim

05-14-2003, 11:39 PM	#3
Evan Duke User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 52 Thanks: 2 Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts	Bob,just about every part on that 1915 luger should have the last 2 digits of the serial number stamped on them.The hold open will be stamped, the inside of the wood grips will be stamped,the under side of the barrel near the frame will have the whole serial number stamped on it.The optional parts may be the magazine release and the firing pin.The magazine should have a wood bottom if it is stamped with the matching number, that is a big +. Hope this helps. Evan

05-15-2003, 12:30 AM	#4
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Bob, Look for numbers of course! I mean matched numbers & also same dimensions of numbers ( very easy to re-stamp Lugers ) Also for parts fit like the barrel/receiver mark. Correct proofmarks on that DWM ( ? ) and sharpness of those... Sorry I did not have a PIC of a DWM close by...Here a PIC of an important area of any Luger...from a blank chamber Simson... kidvett <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

05-15-2003, 07:28 AM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Bob, the nice thing about Imperial Lugers as versus a Nazi Era Luger is the consistency of production all the bluing was the same. The size of the numbering is the same from one gun to the next. A 1913 Erfurt will compare to a 1918 Erfurt. A 1912 DWM will compare to a 1917 DWM. An Erfurts proof marks will be different from a DWM because the Erfurt was made at the royal arsenal and DWM was made by a private company. Erfurts will have crown inspectors marks all over the place including the grip screws. But don't reject the gun if the grip screws don't have the proof marks though. The remarks by the above people are good. But I dont think I would kick the gun out of bed if the grips did not have matching numbers. As a collector, I usually keep 5-10 recheckered unnumbered original grips around to replace broken grips. So if the grips are repros or have the million dollar chip up by the saftey, that might influence the price a bit but not necessarily be a cause for rejection. Ebay has tons of original grips for sale. A matching magazine is a plus but I would not reject the gun if the mag was a repro or a mismatch. Check the bore. Sometimes they are really bad on WW1 guns. The ammo of that period wasn't so good. Something that would cause me to reject a gun would be bad outside pitting. Thats right up there with a mismatched gun. Then there is the matter of whether or not you like the general appearance of the gun. At $750, that is not a bad general price if you approve of the general looks of the gun. Big Norm

05-15-2003, 03:03 PM	#6
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Bob, * Don't forget the WW1 firing pin will be unflutted & was issued with the last 2 digits of the S/N. An Erfurt model will also be Crown/ Letter marked. * Other internal serial numbered small parts are the trigger(under the side plate) & the hold open bearing the last two digits of the gun S/N. * Wood bottom mag base on a folded sheet metal, tin colored, single side pinned mag tube. DWM will have the complete S/N with the lower case alpha block letter, if applicable, marked on the base & no proof acceptance stamps. Erfurt will have same + one or two Crown/letter(s). acceptance stamps. * I've heard no firm consensus on inside side plate numbering for WW1 production. I've seen single digit alpha or numeric inside side plate marks attributed to the Mfg.'s (worker's) interim inspection/acceptance of the individual small part. May see more than one mark, each randomly placed. * WW1 issued grips were S/N'd and usually had a Crown/letter acceptance IMO. * Trust this helps. RockinWR

05-16-2003, 01:53 PM	#7
Orvis25 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Can someone explain the "Smell test" for rebluing

05-16-2003, 03:21 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	Thanksgiving mornings, after going duck hunting with my uncle and grandfather, then cleaning the shotguns before noon. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-19-2003, 05:12 PM	#13
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Famous Grouse? Sound slike a W.E.B. Griffin fan.