Was it ethical to scoop the dealer...?

[Bob in OH]

Was at the local gun dealership today and a younger man walks in with his grandfathers byf42 Luger (d-block). The dealer is pretty slick, up front, but a jerk otherwise when the walk-ins are gone.

Anyway, the young man is considering selling his Granddads piece and I quitely mention (while in the store) that I collect German stuff... and do an end run around the Dealer. The young man and I meet outside where I pass him my phone number... Grampa will decide on Easter whether he wants to sell...

First, have I violated the "Luger Gods" or do I get high marks for the end run??

Second, this piece sadly is only 75-80% but matching, a decent brown 1942 holster, and 135 tool. Had two mags... the one in the pistol was worth -0- as busted out black plastic and the second was at home doh!!!

What's a good price to pay for this rig?

TIA...Bob

[Edward Tinker]

High five to you, no offense to the gun dealers out there, as you will probably give them more than the gun store would.

Rough {{ed }} prices:

75% pretty rough, so a bit more than shooter, but still worth $600 ? {{being a byf 42 might change the price. Frank?}

decent brown holster 1942 at least $100, probably $150 brown color is more desirable to people and it could be a rarer variation {guys?}

135 tool, at least $50

parts magazine at least $20-40 on e-bay

So, if you like it and think it is worth $800 to you...

[Frank]

Pretty good Ed, The tool is $100 to $125, the holster is worth up to $250, depending on the condition. The crummy mag is about $40. The Luger is worth more than $600, if it is all matching. I would say $1000 would be proper. Now having said that, the condition is all important!!

Considering shooters are going for $600, plus, all matching without any rust or corrosion is worth more!!

Dealers are on the side of dealers!!!!

[Edward Tinker]

Went low, cuz no pictures and hopefully Grandpa wants her to go to a good home

[Sgt Art]

Yeah, it's kind of unethical, but you know what, it wouldn't be the first time it's happened.

Just to tell you how ruthless some collectors are, I once saw a relative newby post on another forum about a rifle he saw at a local gun shop. He described it with pretty decent detail and gave the price. Someone reading that board looked at person's profile, saw where he lived and called the gunshops in that town and bought the rifle out from under the original poster! The original poster related this as he found out when he called the dealer back and was told someone from out of town bought the rifle using a credit card. I learned a lesson that day. What you did wasn't in that league.

[lugercollector]

Hey Bob..... maybe it was a touch on the iffy side... ultimately you have to ask yourself if you would do it again??...what if it was a really rare Krieghoff Luger...would you feel guilty if you gave the owner a better price than the dealer???...not an easy choice!!...As Sgt Art mentioned some collectors can be be very determined to get what they want....even if it means treading(or stomping) on a few toes....bottom line is you make your bed and sleep in it....Peter...

[John Sabato]

The question of ethics...

I guess you should ask yourself the question, If I was standing in front of the dealer and he mentioned his price, would you have attempted to outbid him while he was watching?

I think the only thing shady was the fact that you didn't do it inside the store. Unless the dealer was a Luger Collector, he certainly wouldn't have paid a dime more for the Luger than he would have to pay to make his normal profit.

You did the kid a favor... The dealer will have to be sharper about how he conducts his business with you around...if he lets you hang around. From your description, it doesn't sound like a gunshop I would do business with unless I had no choice.

In my opinion, most gun dealers really aren't interested in buying second hand or taking trades unless they are sure they can make a bundle on the deal.

just my

[Stevie]

We live in a capitalistic society, which basicly means the meek probably won't inherit the Earth, or if you want that gun speak up!
Are you the same Bob that likes Spanish guns?

You're an OK guy! Stevie.

[Frank]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">....bottom line is you make your bed and sleep in it.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Enjoy your bed!!!!

[lugerholsterrepair]

Bob, I question if this really would have been any different than standing at the front door of a gunshow. Sounds like the kid did not have the authority to sell at the time anyway. I have to admit I would have done the same thing if I had seen a Luger. Any other pistol I would pass as I was on the dealers turf but I just can't pass up the opportunity on a Luger. He who gets there the fastest with the money...

Interesting story last week. I go to a yard sale and a guy is holding a Colt peacemaker...I ask if it is for sale and he says yes, $50.00. I say are you going to buy it? The guy says I don't think so...I ran over to the owner and shoved $50.00 in his hands and went back and took my pistol. The fellow seemed somewhat surprised but what the hell....There are the quick and the less fortunate. Jerry Burney

[Aaron]

IMHO it is absolutely unethical to conduct business in any way with the individual until he leaves the shop. A few months back I entered a gun shop and saw a very good friend of twenty years standing talking to the owner. I ran over and greeted him, then noticed he was in the middle of showing a gun to the dealer which I did not know my friend owned, as we never discussed guns, only our interest in RC flying. He had a totally mint Colt 1911A1 with a mint shoulder holster which was issued to him in WWII as a B-24 pilot, and he was saying he had only put two cartridges through it. He has no children and is in poor health. The dealer was telling him the rig was worth about $600. Without a word to anyone, I left the store and hung around the parking lot until he came out, pistol in hand. I spoke to him and told him I was interested in the pistol, but it turned out he was just curious about the value and did not want to sell it under any circumstances. I think I acted pretty ethically. However, I even have some reservations about having used the dealer's parking lot to try and make a deal. I think you should be completely off the property before opening up negotiations, otherwise it could be considered ethical to just hang around outside the door and approach anyone going inside with a firearm.

[John Sabato]

Jerry!

$50 for a Colt Peacemaker!

Now we need to hear the REST OF THE STORY!

How old is it?

What caliber?

What kind of grips?

What kind of finish?

Photos PLEASE!

BTW, congrats!

[lugerholsterrepair]

John, Don't get too excited....Colt made a .22 revolver called a peacemaker.Similar to their other model the frontier I think it was called. Looks like a smaller single action revolver but it books out at about $250-$300.00 is all. Sorry I misled you! Jerry Burney

Aaron, I have to agree with your ethics, it would be a little on the shameful side to strike up a deal in front of the dealers counter. And like you say even in the parking lot is pushing it, but when a Luger shows up like that a true Luger nut can't help himself. I don't know that I would do it myself but I would be chomping at the bit to talk to the guy. I have very few vices and hunting Lugers is one of them. Jerry

[karmast]

I don't think it is unethical to enlarge your chances to buy a -perhaps great- luger.
Has any arm dealer made you a present before? I don't think so.
Quite a time ago I stood in the store of my favourite arm dealer and talked to a young man, who came to the dealer to take out his -due to german weapon law- deactivated luger.
We talked a bit in front of the gunstore-owner and we soon began to have a bit of friendship.
I had to stay in the store after he left, because I had to wait for my items.
Pretty much time later (it is always hard for me to leave a gunstore ;-) ) I went out and: he waited for me in front of the store.
We made pretty good deals since then and he offered me some good rarities for a good price.
I think, you are OK, but I would have been ashamed to trade in the store, too..
On the other hand side: you are not buying cigarettes or toilet paper, something without collection-worth. You was interested in a luger - and in my opinion every luger - even a very often seen byf41 has its own story..
So don't mind!

[jamese]

The tables can flip the other way too!

I'm a little embarrassed to share this story, but I will so others don't fall into the same trap.

I visit a pawn shop every 3 or 4 weeks and found a 1900 AE in about 70% to 80% marked with a tag attached for $800.

(mind you, I've known this pawn shop owner for over 2 years and he knows that I always inquire about lugers)

anyway, he shows me the gun and he allowed me to inspect it. Everything appears to be matching from my quick look,(removed grips and receiver). I tell him that Iâ??ll take it and ask him if he'll take one of my checks.

After what I thought, was a deal (I bought the gun), he starts asking me about it. I tell him that itâ??s a 1900 AE and when he looks up the ser # in the blue book, he grabs the gun from my hands and says it not for sale.

It turns out that it was one of the test American eagles ser# 7055. Two days later he calls me back up and asked me if I wanted the gun for $5000 or help him sell it. I told him to kiss my #?@

I talked to the previous owner, the guy that the pawn shop bought it from and its turns out that the pawn shop only paid the old man $300 for the thing.

Valuable lesson learned

And please don't rub in how stupid I was for sharing my knowledge with someone who I thought was
interested in learning about lugers

Jim

[Lugerdoc]

TWIMC, Another situation not previously mentioned is gunshow courtesy. If someone approaches my PAID tables at a show and offers to sell me a pistol, I don't expect others standing nearby to jump in on the deal and make an auction out of it. If I pass, then no problem. In a lot of cases, I'll suggest another dealer who might be interested in the item, if it is out of my area of interest or expertise. I know that I may have passed on some rare items by my lack of knowledge. Once at a Fresno show, I refered a kid with Grandpa's Luffwaffe swords, daggers, flags, etc. to my neighbor Mike Gabor, who bought it all for about $2500. Turned out that the LW HQ flag later sold to a museum for $10K. On the other hand, at a local St.Louis show where I was not set up, another young man offered to sell a table holder a nice AC/41 P38, but he declined to even offer because he already had several post war P1s on his table in the $250 to $300 range. As we walked away from the table, I was happy to purchase his WW2 for his offering price of $250. Tom H.

[Big Norm]

I have to agree with Lugerdoc. I would not interfere with ongoing verbal negotiations. But once the negotiations appear to be over, then anything goes. I think that the originator of this post handled it good by quietly slipping a piece of paper to the seller. He did not want to irritate the pawnshop guy because he might want to deal with the pawnshop sometime else.
But Jamese's dealing with a pawn shop was crap. The sale was made and the dealer had no right, after Jamese agreed to purchase the gun, to take the purchase back. What the pawnshop guy was sickening. A lesson learned.
I often talk to Doug Smiths crew of FGS. Good bunch of guys. And it often occurs that someone tries to sell FGS a gun but FGS does not want it. I wait until FGS turns down the gun and the offer is over. Then I ask the seller to see his gun. The FGS group has never gotten mad at me.
Big Norm

[Bob Egan]

I am ethical and honest when dealing with people and do not attempt to buy guns out from under a dealer, and, at the same time, do not feel obliged to offer the fruits of fifty years of reading and research to every greedy person who has a gun to sell.One greedy guy so turned me off with his offer of a Smith and Wesson Frontier that I rejected it, told him to throw it in the river, and as I walked away he said" will you take it for free"? So I did.

[John St]

This was informative and most interesting to browse. I had gone back to a store on quite a few occasions to purchase a firearm I had seen earlier but balked at for one reason or other only to discover it was sold, in one case while standing and waiting for someone to assist me in front of the gun while another assistant led another customer to the very gun I was going to get and took it out for him!
I never regretted buying something too quickly, which means I should trust my gut instinct and buy--but maybe waiting has caused me to be a bit too careful now and then.
In the case of the above Luger 42 1940 all matching for $600.00 I almost decided to get it on sight where a Luger collector had dismantled it and was examining all the parts. He appeared to either have one like it or didn't feel the need to get it but he offered to buy just the holster (1934 Eric Sindel from Berlin--Late Nazi style) but the store owner wouldn't let the gun get separated.
I asked the Luger customer some questions about the gun after he was done with it (while I held it and felt endearment rising in my blood) and he was very kind to tell me all I wanted to know in front of the store owner (who openly said he was not an expert and was keeping the price at $600.00 for a shooter).
I gave the gun back but called the next day to say I'd get it tomorrow.
At the range I was pleasantly surprised with accuracy at 30' (one hole 4 shot groups with one shot 1" higher--don't know why, I've shot 5 with 8 in the magazine and 5 with 5 in the magazine and get the same results!)and flawless function. The cases shot up so high they hit the ceiling of the range cover before falling down behind me.
The feel and balance is in a class all by itself.
Now I am wondering if this means I have to find another one! (Luger!)
John St
Additional Note:
This pistol is the most accurate and reliable automatic that I have ever had after many .45 autos from Springfield and Colt and other 9mms from CZ, Browning and Beretta (M-9).
This WWII Luger 42 1940 is easily better than all the above I have had experience with.
Is it okay to use it as a shooter and forget about collecting value?
This gun is my dream and I want to add to it!

John St

[hipwr223]

Personally I take offense to guys trying to buy firearms or collectibles out from under me at MY store.

I pay the rent, I have all the risk, I am not rich. Yet guys feel that they have a right to out bid me on guns that MY advertising dollars brought into the shop.

It costs me $6000.00 a month in overhead just to keep the doors open. Hard business indeed for a little guy. The only thing that keeps me afloat is the occasional quality collectible that has some margin in it.

Bottom line is if you try and wheel and deal on guns in my shop I will escort you out and will never welcome you back.

If i decide I am not interested in the item in question I will gladly allow anyone within ear shot to make a deal.

I think it was in poor taste to try and out bid the dealer. When there are no more dealers, there are no more gun shops.

John
Seneca Arms Co
116 Gravel Pike
Green Lane, Pa 18054

215-234-8984