German unit number on Luger

susanL · 02-05-2003, 06:30 AM

Hello, I am helping a friend gather some information about a luger he has. Dok has been kind enough to assist me in various answers, but requested I should put up the information here.
To Start the story My Friends Dad was at the battle of the Somme WWI, he was in the NZ Army, after attacking a machine gun post with a barage of bombs, every one was killed except for one very yong man he was about 16. At that time it was a take no prisoners situation. Well this gentleman's Dad felt sorry for this young boy, took away his Luger, fired in the air and told him to run. He faked his log book so he wouldn't get in trouble.
His Father for many years thought of the boy, but we have no information on him. So for many years the Father's log book and gun have sat in a box, since he would like to leave this to his Grandchildren one day, I thought I would give him a hand on the research of it. It came to our surprise that some of the numbers mean the gun was asigned to a unit number and a person I believe.
Is there anyway to decode this information. He would like to know if the boy survived the war. Here is what we know at this moment about the gun.

1) the combined length of barrel and chamber appears to be approximately 4" -
This is a standard Military issue 4" barrel. Military barrels were 4", Navy
barrels were 6" and Artillery barrels were 8".

2)there is a safety catch marked: GESICHERT on the left side above the hand grip
Gesichert is the German word for "made safe".

3)on the chamber housing it carries the stamped date: 1913
The year the pistol was manufactured

4) on the left side, in front of the trigger guard, and on the underside of the barrel it is stamped with a serial number: 1287;
Correct for this model.

5)the flared, chamber end of the barrel is stamped: 8,33 (or it could be B,33 or even 6,33)
It is 8,83. Europeans use a comma where we would use a period. This is
8.83 mm, and represents the "land" distance. The barrel has rifling, the
grooves that turn the bullet. The raised areas in between the grooves are
called lands. This would be the narrowest dimension of the barrel. In this
case 8.83 mm, which for a 9mm pistol is normal.

6)several of the smaller parts are stamped: 87;
Because Lugers were essentially hand made, this being just the dawn of mass
production, and each piece had to be hand fitted. Due to this there were
minor differences from piece to piece, and a part from one pistol would not
necessarily work in another pistol. So each small part was individually
hand stamped with the last two digits of the serial number to ensure the
parts for the respective pistols stayed together during manfacture. The
value of a Luger is decided in large part by the fact that all these numbers
match. The term "matching" refers to this and in a collector grade gun, all
the numbers, inside and out will match.

7)on the top of the bolt toggle in ornate upper case script are the letters: DWM;
Deusche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (German Arms and Munitions They were
the primary manufacturer of Lugers until 1920.

8)on the front of the hand-grip, under the trigger guard, is stamped: B.18.R.M.G.65.
This is a unit marking. Each of the symbols between the dots specify a
military unit --> squad --> company --> down to the gun number. This was
pistol number 65 issued to that Unit. Having a unit number on a pistol
increases it's value accordingly. Sometimes records exist that can even
tell you who the pistol may have been issued to, but many of these were lost
after the war.

9)on the right side of the chamber there are four stamped symbols which could be coats of arms (one appears to include a small crown,
another could be a stylised eagle.
These are acceptance stamps. Because making these Lugers was largely a hand
process, inspectors signed off on the pistol at various stages of its
production. Each of the stamps tells its own story of the gun's testing,
firing and acceptance.

10)a coil spring is mounted in the hand-grip;
Probably normal for this date, Leaf springs were common before 1906, and then a change to coil springs was
instituted.

11)the full-cover leather holster has what looks like the letters, stamped in black ink on the lid: JOT and: M.G.K.
The inclusion of a holster qualifies this to be called a "rig". The letters signify the manufacturer of the
holster German soldiers were not permitted to deface their equipment under heavy
penalty, so this would not be the soldiers initials.

12) included in a small pouch on the lid is a multipurpose tool which
includes a screwdriver tip (corner broken off) and a device to assist
in compressing the magazine spring and locking it to simplify loading;
It is called a take down tool and may or may not have some marking on it.

13)there are two 8 (or 9?) round magazines (one slightly damaged).
There may or may not be the serial number of the pistol stamped on the
bottom of the magazines. If the serial numbers are there, and if they match
the pistol, you have quite a find. A full rig rig with all matching numbers
including magazines is a rare find, and given the condition of the pistol is
in good condition and the "strawing" is still visible (the yellow colored parts on the pistol) and unit marked, you friend certainly has a collector
grade pistol, Having magazines that ARE NOT numbered to the pistol, is NOT considered a negative point.

Any assitance would be greatly appreciated in our search.
Thank you.
-Susan-

Edward Tinker · 02-05-2003, 10:17 AM

Susan, please check your PM for detailed information, but essentially;

Your Luger is marked to a German machine gun unit that battled at the Somme from August 25 to Sept. 27 1916.

1913 DWM, serial number, 1287, B.18.R.M.G..65. : Bavarian 18 Infantry Regiment, Machine Gun company, weapon number 65.

Ed

Steve Richards · 02-05-2003, 04:16 PM

I can be of no help in your information quest but I do want to say that your friend is very lucky and I hope will take good care of this piece. As we have warned others, if you or your friend are not familiar with Lugers, be very carefull when removing the left grip. Remove the screw and lift the bottom JUST enough to then slide the grip down. If you try to lift the grip out you will very likely break the top rear corner of the grip.

Enjoy what sounds like a wonderful family heirloom.

02-05-2003, 06:30 AM	#1
susanL New User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	German unit number on Luger Hello, I am helping a friend gather some information about a luger he has. Dok has been kind enough to assist me in various answers, but requested I should put up the information here. To Start the story My Friends Dad was at the battle of the Somme WWI, he was in the NZ Army, after attacking a machine gun post with a barage of bombs, every one was killed except for one very yong man he was about 16. At that time it was a take no prisoners situation. Well this gentleman's Dad felt sorry for this young boy, took away his Luger, fired in the air and told him to run. He faked his log book so he wouldn't get in trouble. His Father for many years thought of the boy, but we have no information on him. So for many years the Father's log book and gun have sat in a box, since he would like to leave this to his Grandchildren one day, I thought I would give him a hand on the research of it. It came to our surprise that some of the numbers mean the gun was asigned to a unit number and a person I believe. Is there anyway to decode this information. He would like to know if the boy survived the war. Here is what we know at this moment about the gun. 1) the combined length of barrel and chamber appears to be approximately 4" - This is a standard Military issue 4" barrel. Military barrels were 4", Navy barrels were 6" and Artillery barrels were 8". 2)there is a safety catch marked: GESICHERT on the left side above the hand grip Gesichert is the German word for "made safe". 3)on the chamber housing it carries the stamped date: 1913 The year the pistol was manufactured 4) on the left side, in front of the trigger guard, and on the underside of the barrel it is stamped with a serial number: 1287; Correct for this model. 5)the flared, chamber end of the barrel is stamped: 8,33 (or it could be B,33 or even 6,33) It is 8,83. Europeans use a comma where we would use a period. This is 8.83 mm, and represents the "land" distance. The barrel has rifling, the grooves that turn the bullet. The raised areas in between the grooves are called lands. This would be the narrowest dimension of the barrel. In this case 8.83 mm, which for a 9mm pistol is normal. 6)several of the smaller parts are stamped: 87; Because Lugers were essentially hand made, this being just the dawn of mass production, and each piece had to be hand fitted. Due to this there were minor differences from piece to piece, and a part from one pistol would not necessarily work in another pistol. So each small part was individually hand stamped with the last two digits of the serial number to ensure the parts for the respective pistols stayed together during manfacture. The value of a Luger is decided in large part by the fact that all these numbers match. The term "matching" refers to this and in a collector grade gun, all the numbers, inside and out will match. 7)on the top of the bolt toggle in ornate upper case script are the letters: DWM; Deusche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (German Arms and Munitions They were the primary manufacturer of Lugers until 1920. 8)on the front of the hand-grip, under the trigger guard, is stamped: B.18.R.M.G.65. This is a unit marking. Each of the symbols between the dots specify a military unit --> squad --> company --> down to the gun number. This was pistol number 65 issued to that Unit. Having a unit number on a pistol increases it's value accordingly. Sometimes records exist that can even tell you who the pistol may have been issued to, but many of these were lost after the war. 9)on the right side of the chamber there are four stamped symbols which could be coats of arms (one appears to include a small crown, another could be a stylised eagle. These are acceptance stamps. Because making these Lugers was largely a hand process, inspectors signed off on the pistol at various stages of its production. Each of the stamps tells its own story of the gun's testing, firing and acceptance. 10)a coil spring is mounted in the hand-grip; Probably normal for this date, Leaf springs were common before 1906, and then a change to coil springs was instituted. 11)the full-cover leather holster has what looks like the letters, stamped in black ink on the lid: JOT and: M.G.K. The inclusion of a holster qualifies this to be called a "rig". The letters signify the manufacturer of the holster German soldiers were not permitted to deface their equipment under heavy penalty, so this would not be the soldiers initials. 12) included in a small pouch on the lid is a multipurpose tool which includes a screwdriver tip (corner broken off) and a device to assist in compressing the magazine spring and locking it to simplify loading; It is called a take down tool and may or may not have some marking on it. 13)there are two 8 (or 9?) round magazines (one slightly damaged). There may or may not be the serial number of the pistol stamped on the bottom of the magazines. If the serial numbers are there, and if they match the pistol, you have quite a find. A full rig rig with all matching numbers including magazines is a rare find, and given the condition of the pistol is in good condition and the "strawing" is still visible (the yellow colored parts on the pistol) and unit marked, you friend certainly has a collector grade pistol, Having magazines that ARE NOT numbered to the pistol, is NOT considered a negative point. Any assitance would be greatly appreciated in our search. Thank you. -Susan-

02-05-2003, 10:17 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,609 Times in 2,123 Posts	Susan, please check your PM for detailed information, but essentially; Your Luger is marked to a German machine gun unit that battled at the Somme from August 25 to Sept. 27 1916. 1913 DWM, serial number, 1287, B.18.R.M.G..65. : Bavarian 18 Infantry Regiment, Machine Gun company, weapon number 65. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-05-2003, 04:16 PM	#3
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I can be of no help in your information quest but I do want to say that your friend is very lucky and I hope will take good care of this piece. As we have warned others, if you or your friend are not familiar with Lugers, be very carefull when removing the left grip. Remove the screw and lift the bottom JUST enough to then slide the grip down. If you try to lift the grip out you will very likely break the top rear corner of the grip. Enjoy what sounds like a wonderful family heirloom.