Why a stock-lug?

P. Ristan · 05-02-2003, 09:42 AM

Why does most standard military P-08's have the stock-lug?
As far as I know, the standard P-08 was never issued with a stock?

When the germans took over the Radom-factory in Poland, they stopped producing Radoms with the stock-lug.
Same thing with the Browning High Power when they took the FN-factory in Belgium in 1940..

Why build the luger with a stock-lug for more than 40 years, and never issue a stock??

Any thoughts?

Lugerdoc · 05-02-2003, 10:54 AM

PR, It is generally thought that some of the luger production jigs used after 1914, held the unfinished PO8 frame by this lug for further milling of some interior frame surfaces. Therefore, since the navies, LPO8s, carbines, etc. had provisions for stocks, it was probably easier to to make all frames the same. Tom H.

Pete Ebbink · 05-02-2003, 11:00 AM

Hello Peter,

I have read in one of my luger books that one theory is that the stock lug was a secure method to hold the piece while it was being finished in the later steps of manufacturing; thus luger makers continued to machine the stock lug on the frames.

Initially this made sense to me; but does the added time to machine the stock lug warrant any benefits of holding the piece more securely for finish work ? Also the older lugers without stock lugs where obviously held in place during finishing steps on the assembly floor by other methods, so I am not sure if this arguement makes sense...

Good question you have brought up...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 05-02-2003, 11:31 AM

Pete,

The Germans were not known for doing things that don't make sense (at least not back then...lately their government has been pulling some really wierd stuff)... I submit that as time and requirements changed, they determined about 1914 that there were simpler methods and possibly newer and better tools for production of the Luger frame and for exactly the reasons mentioned by "Lugerdoc" Heller.

A question for you... do you know if any Lugers were produced AFTER 1914 that didn't include the stock lug? I may be wrong, but I can't think of any production runs offhand that were without a stock lug...

If it were for small commercial production runs, it was probably easier to take a standard frame and remove the lug...

Your reference library is larger than mine... sounds like a nice research project for you to spend time on this weekend...

Big Norm · 05-02-2003, 08:10 PM

John,
the 1906/1934 Portuguese did not have a stock lug. But, as you suggested, it may have been ground off when the grip safety was added. That is the only exception that I can think of.
Big Norm

ViggoG · 05-03-2003, 02:17 AM

As far as I can determine, the stock lug was continued for the express purpose of "Mystifying All Future Luger Collectors". <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> "Enough to drive a man to drink"

I have heard it said that the stock irons are not interchangeable with the lugs of one manufacturer to another.

Again it appears that when the machinery was moved from Ã¢??one location and manufacturerÃ¢?Â to Ã¢??another location with a different manufacturerÃ¢?Â there was a change in the fit of the stock lug which would have created serious errors if used as a fixturing device. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

As a Machinist, Toolmaker, Designer, and Supervisor I have never had a feeling that use of the stock lug had any reasonable application in machining techniques, other than to fasten a stock to the frame.

The use of the stock lug as described in several Documentation of the Luger P-08, put forth a variety of applications that, if attempted, would result in disaster to the weapon and tooling! <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />

I for one would Appreciate it if any person having connections in the "Euro Nations", would establish contact with the CEO of the last known Manufacturer of the Luger. (I believe in the 1970Ã¢??s) To determine if the Production Line Supervisor is still available and would answer some questions about the use of the stock lug for manufacturing setup and holding of the P-08 Frame during any machining finishing, or inspection operations.
If one of these Supervisors of the 1970Ã¢??s production plant were available perhaps many of these nagging questions could be put to rest.
Perhaps one of you Forum Members in the Euro Nations could undertake to research this matter, Please? <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />
ViggoG
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

Thor · 05-03-2003, 02:21 AM

ViggoG, I have often wondered if they sat around the bar chugging down frothy biers and musing "vunder vat kind of new stamp vould drive these cullectors crazy, ja?"

ViggoG · 05-03-2003, 04:05 AM

Thor, <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Ja, Das Ist vat mien bes geus Ist !!!
ViggoG <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> More Beer !! <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

Hairy · 05-03-2003, 09:33 AM

Werchlicht, und eins mehr bier fur die Strasse.

Lugerdoc · 05-04-2003, 11:46 AM

Viggo, See page 134 of John Walter's book "Luger" (not the Luger Book") for some tips on the 1970s Mauser machining techniques for their non-stock lug type Parabellum. Tom H.

ViggoG · 05-05-2003, 02:09 AM

Tom,
<img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
I'm sorry to say that I am not able to reference
page 134 of John Walter's book "Luger" (not the Luger Book") for some tips on the 1970s Mauser machining techniques for their non-stock lug type Parabellum.
I have no Luger Reference books other than Henrotin's E-Books.
If someone could E-mail me this reference I would be most appreciative! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
ViggoG
viggogdereng@juno.com

Edward Tinker · 05-05-2003, 03:09 AM

Sorry ViggoG, the only ref book I have by Walter is the Luger Story,

Ed

Vlim · 05-05-2003, 11:15 AM

Hi,

Just for completeness sake: The Dutch luger was produced until the late 30's as a 1906 model without the stock lug.

Edward Tinker · 05-05-2003, 12:17 PM

I wonder if they had a seperate jigging / machining tool (or what?) to make a 1906 model versus a 1908 model?

Seems like a lot of work for as few guns as they made like this?

Ed

Jim Keenan · 05-06-2003, 04:04 PM

The Lugers produced for Interarms at first had no stock lug for the obvious reason that they were made on the Swiss machinery. But customer demand caused them to add the stock lug so it would be a "real" Luger. They still didn't sell enough to keep up production.

The reason they kept putting it on the P.08, as I understand, was simply because it was in the contract, and the specifications were never changed. The army rationale was probably that the cost savings of removing it would be small, and it would be there if a soldier had a stock and wanted to use it.

Jim

Barry Briscoe · 05-07-2003, 01:10 PM

Maybe the stock lugs were used during shipment to the military on racks to prevent damage or while they were in storage before being issued.It seems to me as a machinist to be a lot of wasted time to machine the stock lug that was rarely used with a stock.It really would be of little help in setting up the frame for a machining operation as it would not be rigid enough or accurate enough for setting up a machining operation without additional clamps or fixtures.

Jim Keenan · 05-07-2003, 08:13 PM

Hi, Barry,

AFAIK, the basic reference points of the Luger grip piece was the flat top and the rear face, not the stock lug. I think the stock lug stayed for the reason I gave, that the army specs were never changed. Various improvements could have been made to the U.S. M1911 also, but aside from the update to the M1911A1 they were never made. Military designs tend to be "frozen" once a design is formally adopted, mostly because of concern about non-interchangeability of parts, changes to manuals, delay of production while changes are made, changes to training documents, etc.

Jim

ViggoG · 05-08-2003, 01:45 AM

A Toast to: <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />
Jim Keenan
Registered User
Member # 1248

Jim has come up with the only answer to "Why Stock Lugs?", that makes sense to a toolmaker, designer.
Hardened Specifications and the Military Resistance to Change!
I'll Buy That, and a Beer for the Lucky Man, collectable when we meet! Thats for shure !
Thanks Jim.
<img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />
ViggoG

Dwight Gruber · 05-08-2003, 05:24 AM

I think Jim has struck the real answer to this question.

But, the stock lug isn't the only relic of the past which has stuck with the P-08.

I've noticed this odd little step machined into the left grip strap of all P-08-style Lugers, and never could quite figure why it is there (sorry about the quality of the scan).

Reading up on Simson Lugers this evening, I saw the picture of a Simson rework which actually retrofitted a grip safety onto a DWM P-08. I had a sudden epiphany, and checked a 1906 to make sure--all P-08s have the grip strap cut for a grip safety!

Another example of the specs (or the pattern) being this way from time immemorial, and the specifications were never chanaged?

--Dwight

John Sabato · 05-08-2003, 11:37 AM

You may be on to something Dwight, but I don't own a Luger with a grip safety to compare the frames in person. I would have to do it photographically if I have a suitable pair of photos in my archive...

Can anyone who owns both types please post photographs of the same area that Dwight has illustrated? Perhaps from a 90 degree angle from the back?

This continues to be a lively and educational discussion.

05-02-2003, 09:42 AM	#1
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Why a stock-lug? Why does most standard military P-08's have the stock-lug? As far as I know, the standard P-08 was never issued with a stock? When the germans took over the Radom-factory in Poland, they stopped producing Radoms with the stock-lug. Same thing with the Browning High Power when they took the FN-factory in Belgium in 1940.. Why build the luger with a stock-lug for more than 40 years, and never issue a stock?? Any thoughts?

05-02-2003, 10:54 AM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	PR, It is generally thought that some of the luger production jigs used after 1914, held the unfinished PO8 frame by this lug for further milling of some interior frame surfaces. Therefore, since the navies, LPO8s, carbines, etc. had provisions for stocks, it was probably easier to to make all frames the same. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-02-2003, 11:31 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Pete, The Germans were not known for doing things that don't make sense (at least not back then...lately their government has been pulling some really wierd stuff)... I submit that as time and requirements changed, they determined about 1914 that there were simpler methods and possibly newer and better tools for production of the Luger frame and for exactly the reasons mentioned by "Lugerdoc" Heller. A question for you... do you know if any Lugers were produced AFTER 1914 that didn't include the stock lug? I may be wrong, but I can't think of any production runs offhand that were without a stock lug... If it were for small commercial production runs, it was probably easier to take a standard frame and remove the lug... Your reference library is larger than mine... sounds like a nice research project for you to spend time on this weekend... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-03-2003, 02:21 AM	#7
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 971 Times in 277 Posts	ViggoG, I have often wondered if they sat around the bar chugging down frothy biers and musing "vunder vat kind of new stamp vould drive these cullectors crazy, ja?" __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

05-04-2003, 11:46 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Viggo, See page 134 of John Walter's book "Luger" (not the Luger Book") for some tips on the 1970s Mauser machining techniques for their non-stock lug type Parabellum. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-02-2003, 11:00 AM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Hello Peter, I have read in one of my luger books that one theory is that the stock lug was a secure method to hold the piece while it was being finished in the later steps of manufacturing; thus luger makers continued to machine the stock lug on the frames. Initially this made sense to me; but does the added time to machine the stock lug warrant any benefits of holding the piece more securely for finish work ? Also the older lugers without stock lugs where obviously held in place during finishing steps on the assembly floor by other methods, so I am not sure if this arguement makes sense... Good question you have brought up... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

05-02-2003, 08:10 PM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	John, the 1906/1934 Portuguese did not have a stock lug. But, as you suggested, it may have been ground off when the grip safety was added. That is the only exception that I can think of. Big Norm

05-03-2003, 02:17 AM	#6
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	As far as I can determine, the stock lug was continued for the express purpose of "Mystifying All Future Luger Collectors". <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> "Enough to drive a man to drink" I have heard it said that the stock irons are not interchangeable with the lugs of one manufacturer to another. Again it appears that when the machinery was moved from Ã¢??one location and manufacturerÃ¢?Â to Ã¢??another location with a different manufacturerÃ¢?Â there was a change in the fit of the stock lug which would have created serious errors if used as a fixturing device. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> As a Machinist, Toolmaker, Designer, and Supervisor I have never had a feeling that use of the stock lug had any reasonable application in machining techniques, other than to fasten a stock to the frame. The use of the stock lug as described in several Documentation of the Luger P-08, put forth a variety of applications that, if attempted, would result in disaster to the weapon and tooling! <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> I for one would Appreciate it if any person having connections in the "Euro Nations", would establish contact with the CEO of the last known Manufacturer of the Luger. (I believe in the 1970Ã¢??s) To determine if the Production Line Supervisor is still available and would answer some questions about the use of the stock lug for manufacturing setup and holding of the P-08 Frame during any machining finishing, or inspection operations. If one of these Supervisors of the 1970Ã¢??s production plant were available perhaps many of these nagging questions could be put to rest. Perhaps one of you Forum Members in the Euro Nations could undertake to research this matter, Please? <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> ViggoG <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

05-03-2003, 04:05 AM	#8
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thor, <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Ja, Das Ist vat mien bes geus Ist !!! ViggoG <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> More Beer !! <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

05-03-2003, 09:33 AM	#9
Hairy User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hudson, FL Posts: 120 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Werchlicht, und eins mehr bier fur die Strasse.

05-05-2003, 02:09 AM	#11
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Tom, <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> I'm sorry to say that I am not able to reference page 134 of John Walter's book "Luger" (not the Luger Book") for some tips on the 1970s Mauser machining techniques for their non-stock lug type Parabellum. I have no Luger Reference books other than Henrotin's E-Books. If someone could E-mail me this reference I would be most appreciative! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> ViggoG viggogdereng@juno.com

05-05-2003, 03:09 AM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	Sorry ViggoG, the only ref book I have by Walter is the Luger Story, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-05-2003, 11:15 AM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,991 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Just for completeness sake: The Dutch luger was produced until the late 30's as a 1906 model without the stock lug.

05-05-2003, 12:17 PM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	I wonder if they had a seperate jigging / machining tool (or what?) to make a 1906 model versus a 1908 model? Seems like a lot of work for as few guns as they made like this? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-06-2003, 04:04 PM	#15
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The Lugers produced for Interarms at first had no stock lug for the obvious reason that they were made on the Swiss machinery. But customer demand caused them to add the stock lug so it would be a "real" Luger. They still didn't sell enough to keep up production. The reason they kept putting it on the P.08, as I understand, was simply because it was in the contract, and the specifications were never changed. The army rationale was probably that the cost savings of removing it would be small, and it would be there if a soldier had a stock and wanted to use it. Jim

05-07-2003, 01:10 PM	#16
Barry Briscoe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Maybe the stock lugs were used during shipment to the military on racks to prevent damage or while they were in storage before being issued.It seems to me as a machinist to be a lot of wasted time to machine the stock lug that was rarely used with a stock.It really would be of little help in setting up the frame for a machining operation as it would not be rigid enough or accurate enough for setting up a machining operation without additional clamps or fixtures.

05-07-2003, 08:13 PM	#17
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi, Barry, AFAIK, the basic reference points of the Luger grip piece was the flat top and the rear face, not the stock lug. I think the stock lug stayed for the reason I gave, that the army specs were never changed. Various improvements could have been made to the U.S. M1911 also, but aside from the update to the M1911A1 they were never made. Military designs tend to be "frozen" once a design is formally adopted, mostly because of concern about non-interchangeability of parts, changes to manuals, delay of production while changes are made, changes to training documents, etc. Jim

05-08-2003, 01:45 AM	#18
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	A Toast to: <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> Jim Keenan Registered User Member # 1248 Jim has come up with the only answer to "Why Stock Lugs?", that makes sense to a toolmaker, designer. Hardened Specifications and the Military Resistance to Change! I'll Buy That, and a Beer for the Lucky Man, collectable when we meet! Thats for shure ! Thanks Jim. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> ViggoG

05-08-2003, 05:24 AM	#19
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	I think Jim has struck the real answer to this question. But, the stock lug isn't the only relic of the past which has stuck with the P-08. I've noticed this odd little step machined into the left grip strap of all P-08-style Lugers, and never could quite figure why it is there (sorry about the quality of the scan). Reading up on Simson Lugers this evening, I saw the picture of a Simson rework which actually retrofitted a grip safety onto a DWM P-08. I had a sudden epiphany, and checked a 1906 to make sure--all P-08s have the grip strap cut for a grip safety! Another example of the specs (or the pattern) being this way from time immemorial, and the specifications were never chanaged? --Dwight

05-08-2003, 11:37 AM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	You may be on to something Dwight, but I don't own a Luger with a grip safety to compare the frames in person. I would have to do it photographically if I have a suitable pair of photos in my archive... Can anyone who owns both types please post photographs of the same area that Dwight has illustrated? Perhaps from a 90 degree angle from the back? This continues to be a lively and educational discussion. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*