Eagle J stamping

vdiehl · 08-23-2003, 12:55 PM

I posted a picture of this stamp on the Simson 1940 below. What does this stamp tell me. I see it listed in your technical area. Does it date the rework? Does it tell if this is a Anshutz or Vono rework? Just here to learn.

ADMIN: THIS IS THE THREAD HE IS REFERRING TO:
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...c;f=2;t=000614

You can always post in the same thread and it will bring it to the top, although you might have thought the thread "crowded" and then wanted to start a new one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Doubs · 08-23-2003, 02:05 PM

vdiehl, the "Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks" shows the E/J proof to be a "new proof after repair" and in use from 1939 forward. If you look at the thread on Frankenschloss, I just posted a picture of the proofs on the underside of the barrel of a Frankenschloss rework I own. It's marked E/N and E/J. Your Luger could have been reworked by any number of shops and, IMO, without a stamp it's not possible to determine exactly who did the work. The E/J is a civilian proof as far as I know and will not appear on military issue guns unless they have been reworked for civilian use.

Herb · 08-23-2003, 06:39 PM

Unless I have missed something in the threads these markings are found in Costanzo's book in the Eagle Evolution portion on page 127, items 239 & 240. He describes these as -- eagle N is a 1940 independent nitro proof placed on firearms by local gunshops and gunsmiths in Germany to conform with the 1940 proof mark laws. The majority observed were reworks. VONO and Anshultz were the two large reworking factories operating at that time. Mark eagle J is an independant rework proof to indicate alteration or repair of Lugers to conform with the 1940 proof mark law. Interesting note is that the eagle N is exactly like the Krieghoff commercial proof of 1940, that replaced the crown N and crown U and is very uncommon. These Lugers were issued to political, police and customs type organizations.

Doubs · 08-23-2003, 07:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Herb:
Unless I have missed something in the threads these markings are found in Costanzo's book in the Eagle Evolution portion on page 127, items 239 & 240. He describes these as -- eagle N is a 1940 independent nitro proof placed on firearms by local gunshops and gunsmiths in Germany to conform with the 1940 proof mark laws. <hr /></blockquote>The E/N and E/J proofs were established under the 1939 law as I've indicated in my post above. They were not used, however, until 1940 according to Walter in "The Luger Story". From pages 215 & 216 of Walter's book comes this: "The new proof act was drafted late in 1938 and approved by the German Parliament on 7th June 1939, though the new marks - including 'eagle/N' - were not used until 1st April, 1940." This statement coincides with the data in the "Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks".

Heydrich · 08-23-2003, 10:28 PM

Both the E/N (nitro) and E/J (post repair/rework) proofs are commercial types that were used by various civilian workshops in Germany. I have never seen a pre-1940 rework with the eagle/N instead of the crown/N. The E/J proof was used for military firearms, it is particularly endemic to SS reworked G98 rifles.

Doubs · 08-24-2003, 12:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Heydrich:
Both the E/N (nitro) and E/J (post repair/rework) proofs are commercial types that were used by various civilian workshops in Germany. I have never seen a pre-1940 rework with the eagle/N instead of the crown/N. The E/J proof was used for military firearms, it is particularly endemic to SS reworked G98 rifles.<hr /></blockquote>Heydrich, would the reworked Gew98's be WW1 rifles altered for use by the early SS units? I take it that they were reworked by a commercial shop or shops? That's interesting.

Heydrich · 08-24-2003, 11:32 PM

Doubs, yes, the SS were given the leftover WW1 Gew98s as hand-me-downs since the Heer didn't want them. These rifles were contracted out to commercial German shops to be reworked into Kar.98k configuration. The resultant rifles exhibit a plethora of commercial proofs. Upon return to the SS, they received the death head stamp as an acceptance or stocking mark. Some were reworked and/or repaired more than once, thus the appearance of multiple commercial proofs and more than one tote on some of these specimens. This practice continued until about 1942-43, when we see Steyr rifles specifically made for the SS with military proofs instead of the ubiquitous E/N and E/J ones.

As a side note to the Luger in question here, I could have sworn I’d seen this oddball Mauser frame/Simson toggle variant on one of the auction sites before. About 9-12 months ago I think. Even if it wasn’t, if any dealer told me that pistol was taken from a dead North Korean, I’d just snort and walk off. Sounds like pure hokum.

08-23-2003, 12:55 PM	#1
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Eagle J stamping I posted a picture of this stamp on the Simson 1940 below. What does this stamp tell me. I see it listed in your technical area. Does it date the rework? Does it tell if this is a Anshutz or Vono rework? Just here to learn. ADMIN: THIS IS THE THREAD HE IS REFERRING TO: http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...c;f=2;t=000614 You can always post in the same thread and it will bring it to the top, although you might have thought the thread "crowded" and then wanted to start a new one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

08-23-2003, 06:39 PM	#3
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Unless I have missed something in the threads these markings are found in Costanzo's book in the Eagle Evolution portion on page 127, items 239 & 240. He describes these as -- eagle N is a 1940 independent nitro proof placed on firearms by local gunshops and gunsmiths in Germany to conform with the 1940 proof mark laws. The majority observed were reworks. VONO and Anshultz were the two large reworking factories operating at that time. Mark eagle J is an independant rework proof to indicate alteration or repair of Lugers to conform with the 1940 proof mark law. Interesting note is that the eagle N is exactly like the Krieghoff commercial proof of 1940, that replaced the crown N and crown U and is very uncommon. These Lugers were issued to political, police and customs type organizations. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-23-2003, 07:02 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,742 Thanks: 826 Thanked 1,788 Times in 590 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Herb: <strong>Unless I have missed something in the threads these markings are found in Costanzo's book in the Eagle Evolution portion on page 127, items 239 & 240. He describes these as -- eagle N is a 1940 independent nitro proof placed on firearms by local gunshops and gunsmiths in Germany to conform with the 1940 proof mark laws. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The E/N and E/J proofs were established under the 1939 law as I've indicated in my post above. They were not used, however, until 1940 according to Walter in "The Luger Story". From pages 215 & 216 of Walter's book comes this: "The new proof act was drafted late in 1938 and approved by the German Parliament on 7th June 1939, though the new marks - including 'eagle/N' - were not used until 1st April, 1940." This statement coincides with the data in the "Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks".

08-24-2003, 12:57 PM	#6
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,742 Thanks: 826 Thanked 1,788 Times in 590 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Heydrich: <strong>Both the E/N (nitro) and E/J (post repair/rework) proofs are commercial types that were used by various civilian workshops in Germany. I have never seen a pre-1940 rework with the eagle/N instead of the crown/N. The E/J proof was used for military firearms, it is particularly endemic to SS reworked G98 rifles.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Heydrich, would the reworked Gew98's be WW1 rifles altered for use by the early SS units? I take it that they were reworked by a commercial shop or shops? That's interesting.

08-23-2003, 02:05 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,742 Thanks: 826 Thanked 1,788 Times in 590 Posts	vdiehl, the "Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks" shows the E/J proof to be a "new proof after repair" and in use from 1939 forward. If you look at the thread on Frankenschloss, I just posted a picture of the proofs on the underside of the barrel of a Frankenschloss rework I own. It's marked E/N and E/J. Your Luger could have been reworked by any number of shops and, IMO, without a stamp it's not possible to determine exactly who did the work. The E/J is a civilian proof as far as I know and will not appear on military issue guns unless they have been reworked for civilian use.

08-23-2003, 10:28 PM	#5
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Both the E/N (nitro) and E/J (post repair/rework) proofs are commercial types that were used by various civilian workshops in Germany. I have never seen a pre-1940 rework with the eagle/N instead of the crown/N. The E/J proof was used for military firearms, it is particularly endemic to SS reworked G98 rifles.

08-24-2003, 11:32 PM	#7
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Doubs, yes, the SS were given the leftover WW1 Gew98s as hand-me-downs since the Heer didn't want them. These rifles were contracted out to commercial German shops to be reworked into Kar.98k configuration. The resultant rifles exhibit a plethora of commercial proofs. Upon return to the SS, they received the death head stamp as an acceptance or stocking mark. Some were reworked and/or repaired more than once, thus the appearance of multiple commercial proofs and more than one tote on some of these specimens. This practice continued until about 1942-43, when we see Steyr rifles specifically made for the SS with military proofs instead of the ubiquitous E/N and E/J ones. As a side note to the Luger in question here, I could have sworn I’d seen this oddball Mauser frame/Simson toggle variant on one of the auction sites before. About 9-12 months ago I think. Even if it wasn’t, if any dealer told me that pistol was taken from a dead North Korean, I’d just snort and walk off. Sounds like pure hokum.