Doubling ?

Fast Ed · 04-12-2003, 08:24 PM

I have a 1838 S/42 that appears to be in excellent condition. All matching numbers etc. I have 2 mags. neither match the gun's serial #. I was at the range the other day and gave it to a friend to shoot. He experienced what at first appeared to be a live round stovepipe that ejected with the spent round. I had previously experienced such stove piping of a live round with one paticular magizine. I gave him the other magizine and this time it shot 2 rounds at once! For sure one went down the barrel but the other one shot forward --upward at a 45 degree angle. We confirmed the double with round counts as well as debris from the ceiling was on the floor abour 8 feet in front of the shooting booth. Obviously the gun was immediately put up and is now locked on my safe. What causes this to occur and what can I do to fix it for sure?

Dwight Gruber · 04-12-2003, 08:45 PM

Fast Ed,

I'm not quite sure that I am picturing the situation properly. Are you saying that one round discharged -outside- the pistol when it was captured between the breechblock and the breech face?

As far as ejecting two rounds is concerned, my experience may be useful. I had a very cheaply made aftermarket magazine whose feed lips were out of alignment slightly. The magazine tube metal was pretty light and "springy", and if I 'popped' this full magazine smartly into the gun the top round would fly right out of the top of the pistol through the open breech! Although I never had a double ejection on accoiunt of it, I can well imagine it happening under shooting circumstances.

I don't know who the manufacturer of this magazine was--it came along with a Luger I bought--but I would certainly examining the mags you are using, particularly if they are originals. Most rolled steel Luger magazines are pretty worn out by this day and age, and are not suitable for use.

--Dwight

Fast Ed · 04-12-2003, 10:22 PM

Dwight, Yes that is what I'm saying. That one round discharged -outside- the pistol when it was captured between the breechblock and the breech face? If it wasn't that, I can not explain the hole in the ceiling 8 feet in front of where we were shooting. The target he was shooting had the right amount of holes less the ones still in the Mag, except for one! It was not a pop-pop but just one louder bang. Like it fed 2 rounds at once and when the second one could not go in the chamber, it stovepiped. But I still cant figure out why the stove piped round went bang. The empty(s) were ejected, but one was dented. We could not retrieve the empty as it was in front of the firing line. I should have asked to close down to retrieve it but I didn't.

Lugerdoc · 04-13-2003, 09:02 AM

Fasted, I seriously doubt that the round into the ceiling fired outside of the chamber. Obviously, your friend allow his wrist to break on the recoil of the first round and that is where the barrel was pointed. It sounds like your firing pin to sear overlap is worn and the luger is not cocking properly after each round. You will probably have to replace one of these two parts or if the PO8 is matching, have a competent gunsmith "square up" the engagement. Tom H.

Johnny C. Kitchens · 04-13-2003, 01:54 PM

I would second that. A round not fired in a chamber with a barrel, will have very little power. Once the bullet is free of the case, no more power would be applied to the bullet, and it would have very little power. Also it should have less of a bang than one fired in the gun. The luger action is so fast, that in a two shot firing sequence the second shot will be fired in an upward direction. One of the reasons that a fully automatic luger is not a good idea...

Fast Ed · 04-13-2003, 02:59 PM

Lugardoc and Johnny, Thanks for the info.Limpwristing it could be, but my friend shoots weekly- he has a .40 Beretta, a .357 Ruger and he shoots my Kimber .45 regularly.
Let me see if I have this straight.
The first round is fired and due to limp wristing, the recoil is reduced so the second round enters the chamber before the pistol "resets itself, so it goes bang again. Question, why would it not just empty the magizine??? Does it cycle so fast you can't hear the second round? Also, the gun is all matching and looks hardly used.Do you know of a good gunsmith in the lower Michigan, northern Ohio region I could trust to do the work. I want to continue to shoot this gun, so it has to be absolutely reliable. Thanks again, Fast Ed

Ron Wood · 04-13-2003, 03:38 PM

It didn't empty the magazine because fortunately the second round stovepiped. And, yes, the action cycles so fast that you can't hear individual rounds so it sounds like one bang. Lugerdoc is probably on the right track about the firing pin/sear engagement, so your seeking out a good gunsmith is a very prudent choice.

Dwight Gruber · 04-13-2003, 04:14 PM

Fast Ed,

The "limp-wristing" aspect of the dynamic has entirely to do with the direction of the muzzle at the moment the second round discharges. The action either functions completely and properly, "resets itself", or it doesn't; it sounds like, in your case, it does.

The "double" discharge rate of a Luger is pretty dam' fast, if you weren't expecting it you might not believe you heard two rounds.

As far as the magazine not emptying completely, a sticky sear bar or disconnect could be an element of the problem, thus ceasing fire when pressure on the trigger is released.

Frankly, it is not every gunsmith who can be trusted to work on a Luger. They are uncommon pistols, whose mechanical function--particularly the trigger linkage--is unusual. Gunsmiths who are not actively familiar with Lugers may not be able to fix a problem or, worse, may cause problems due to their unfamiliarity.

I strongly recommend that you give some thought to sending your Luger to a known expert in their care and repair, Tom Heller aka Lugerdoc. The odds of a proper diagnosis and repair will increase dramatically. If you do this, be sure to send both magazines along to determine how much they are part of the problem.

Good luck.

--Dwight

Johnny C. Kitchens · 04-13-2003, 10:01 PM

The firer of your gun, probably isn't limp wristing the first shot, but the second probably is, due to it being fired during the recoil of the first shot. The fact that it stovepiped explains why it didn't empty the magazine. Get it fixed, or figured out, so you can truly enjoy shooting it...

Fast Ed · 04-15-2003, 08:06 PM

Thanks guys for the advice, I really appreciate the help. I'm sure you are right about the problem, and will take your advice.
Thanks Fast Ed

04-12-2003, 08:24 PM	#1
Fast Ed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Doubling ? I have a 1838 S/42 that appears to be in excellent condition. All matching numbers etc. I have 2 mags. neither match the gun's serial #. I was at the range the other day and gave it to a friend to shoot. He experienced what at first appeared to be a live round stovepipe that ejected with the spent round. I had previously experienced such stove piping of a live round with one paticular magizine. I gave him the other magizine and this time it shot 2 rounds at once! For sure one went down the barrel but the other one shot forward --upward at a 45 degree angle. We confirmed the double with round counts as well as debris from the ceiling was on the floor abour 8 feet in front of the shooting booth. Obviously the gun was immediately put up and is now locked on my safe. What causes this to occur and what can I do to fix it for sure?

04-13-2003, 09:02 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Fasted, I seriously doubt that the round into the ceiling fired outside of the chamber. Obviously, your friend allow his wrist to break on the recoil of the first round and that is where the barrel was pointed. It sounds like your firing pin to sear overlap is worn and the luger is not cocking properly after each round. You will probably have to replace one of these two parts or if the PO8 is matching, have a competent gunsmith "square up" the engagement. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

04-13-2003, 01:54 PM	#5
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	I would second that. A round not fired in a chamber with a barrel, will have very little power. Once the bullet is free of the case, no more power would be applied to the bullet, and it would have very little power. Also it should have less of a bang than one fired in the gun. The luger action is so fast, that in a two shot firing sequence the second shot will be fired in an upward direction. One of the reasons that a fully automatic luger is not a good idea... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

04-13-2003, 03:38 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	It didn't empty the magazine because fortunately the second round stovepiped. And, yes, the action cycles so fast that you can't hear individual rounds so it sounds like one bang. Lugerdoc is probably on the right track about the firing pin/sear engagement, so your seeking out a good gunsmith is a very prudent choice. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-13-2003, 10:01 PM	#9
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	The firer of your gun, probably isn't limp wristing the first shot, but the second probably is, due to it being fired during the recoil of the first shot. The fact that it stovepiped explains why it didn't empty the magazine. Get it fixed, or figured out, so you can truly enjoy shooting it... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

04-12-2003, 08:45 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Fast Ed, I'm not quite sure that I am picturing the situation properly. Are you saying that one round discharged -outside- the pistol when it was captured between the breechblock and the breech face? As far as ejecting two rounds is concerned, my experience may be useful. I had a very cheaply made aftermarket magazine whose feed lips were out of alignment slightly. The magazine tube metal was pretty light and "springy", and if I 'popped' this full magazine smartly into the gun the top round would fly right out of the top of the pistol through the open breech! Although I never had a double ejection on accoiunt of it, I can well imagine it happening under shooting circumstances. I don't know who the manufacturer of this magazine was--it came along with a Luger I bought--but I would certainly examining the mags you are using, particularly if they are originals. Most rolled steel Luger magazines are pretty worn out by this day and age, and are not suitable for use. --Dwight

04-12-2003, 10:22 PM	#3
Fast Ed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, Yes that is what I'm saying. That one round discharged -outside- the pistol when it was captured between the breechblock and the breech face? If it wasn't that, I can not explain the hole in the ceiling 8 feet in front of where we were shooting. The target he was shooting had the right amount of holes less the ones still in the Mag, except for one! It was not a pop-pop but just one louder bang. Like it fed 2 rounds at once and when the second one could not go in the chamber, it stovepiped. But I still cant figure out why the stove piped round went bang. The empty(s) were ejected, but one was dented. We could not retrieve the empty as it was in front of the firing line. I should have asked to close down to retrieve it but I didn't.

04-13-2003, 02:59 PM	#6
Fast Ed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Lugardoc and Johnny, Thanks for the info.Limpwristing it could be, but my friend shoots weekly- he has a .40 Beretta, a .357 Ruger and he shoots my Kimber .45 regularly. Let me see if I have this straight. The first round is fired and due to limp wristing, the recoil is reduced so the second round enters the chamber before the pistol "resets itself, so it goes bang again. Question, why would it not just empty the magizine??? Does it cycle so fast you can't hear the second round? Also, the gun is all matching and looks hardly used.Do you know of a good gunsmith in the lower Michigan, northern Ohio region I could trust to do the work. I want to continue to shoot this gun, so it has to be absolutely reliable. Thanks again, Fast Ed

04-13-2003, 04:14 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Fast Ed, The "limp-wristing" aspect of the dynamic has entirely to do with the direction of the muzzle at the moment the second round discharges. The action either functions completely and properly, "resets itself", or it doesn't; it sounds like, in your case, it does. The "double" discharge rate of a Luger is pretty dam' fast, if you weren't expecting it you might not believe you heard two rounds. As far as the magazine not emptying completely, a sticky sear bar or disconnect could be an element of the problem, thus ceasing fire when pressure on the trigger is released. Frankly, it is not every gunsmith who can be trusted to work on a Luger. They are uncommon pistols, whose mechanical function--particularly the trigger linkage--is unusual. Gunsmiths who are not actively familiar with Lugers may not be able to fix a problem or, worse, may cause problems due to their unfamiliarity. I strongly recommend that you give some thought to sending your Luger to a known expert in their care and repair, Tom Heller aka Lugerdoc. The odds of a proper diagnosis and repair will increase dramatically. If you do this, be sure to send both magazines along to determine how much they are part of the problem. Good luck. --Dwight

04-15-2003, 08:06 PM	#10
Fast Ed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks guys for the advice, I really appreciate the help. I'm sure you are right about the problem, and will take your advice. Thanks Fast Ed