2 questions: Trigger spring and Hold open issue

Sky Zero · 05-09-2017, 12:57 AM

Good evening/morning ladies and gentlemen,

I figured I'd ask two questions on one thread to save some server space.

First question of two:
My newly acquired 1918 has a trigger that moves side to side quite a lot more than my '41 byf, to a point where it feels like it's clicking (until I push it back to its place). This is happening WITH the side plate on and the actual trigger pull itself has much less tension than the byf. I'm curious if this is a spring issue and requires replacement? If so, who/where is a good place to get a good replacement?

Second question:
On my '41 byf, I'm having a slight issue with the hold open. About 30-45% of the time my hold open doesn't catch on the last round; It catches every single time with an empty magazine. I'm using 2 fairly new mec-gar magazines, as well as the original FXO mag and they all have the same result. Also, I'm using Winchester White Box, my main man Mr. G.T. replaced both the extractor spring and the ejector (you're the best, GT

), and I'm unsure of whether or not the main spring has been changed. The bullets that are ejecting are hitting my head, not going far, and the brass is dented and leaving brass shavings all over the inner workings of my pistol. Also, it's clean underneath the hold open spring. Also, forgot to mention, sometimes the shells will get caught between the bolt and the breach. ONCE IN MAYBE 30 shots, the hold open will activate will some bullets still in the mag.

Any ideas?? Much appreciated, guys!

First 3 photos show the magazine inside the gun WITHOUT pushing up on the bottom.

Sky Zero · 05-09-2017, 12:59 AM

last 2 photos show the magazine and hold open WITH me pushing up on the base of the mag.

Sky Zero · 05-09-2017, 12:59 AM

not sure if these photos help. Thanks.

rhuff · 05-09-2017, 02:07 PM

The trigger on a Luger should not be moving sideways once the spring is seated, and the side plate is installed. What does your trigger return spring look like?? Sound like your spring has been replaced, as std. Luger trigger return springs apply a good bit of forward tension to the trigger.

What does the trigger look like out of the gun?? I am wondering if yours has an inordinate amount of wear. Remove the side plate, the trigger and return spring, and give us a photo of the parts, and the area where they install. Perhaps we can find the problem.

Lugerdoc(Tom) has trigger return springs I believe. I fear that there is more to your problem than a return spring, but the photos will help decide.

DonVoigt · 05-09-2017, 02:17 PM

I agree on the trigger.

If all else is ok on the hold open, it may be riding just a little too high, or the spring may be weak, or a replacement spring that is not pushing it down when it should.

I don't like the sound of brass in the action- unless you want to learn a "lot" about lugers, I suggest you send your mauser to lugerdoc and let him sort it out.

You did not mention if both were matching or not.

Posts are cheap, it may be better to do a separate post for these two different lugers with very different and multiple problems- otherwise it will get confusing to all of us and you really quickly!
JMHO.

mrerick · 05-09-2017, 02:19 PM

I don't think I've seen a magazine hold-open rise that far if properly installed.

IIRC, it mounts down on and slightly hooks on a little pin that the lever then rotates on.

Edward Tinker · 05-09-2017, 03:41 PM

The spring on the hold open is caught down below. I am surprised you can fire it. As you push the spring forward, use a pin or something and slightly raise as you push it, it should click into place.

BTW, you didn't save any server space, you made 4 postings in one thread for four pictures

Seriously, unless you make an inordinate amount of blah blah postings, the server space by text is very small.

Sky Zero · 05-09-2017, 03:53 PM

thanks guys. I'm out of town for the next week-ish but I'll post a picture of the trigger as soon as I get back! (life of an airline pilot).

the hold open is numbered to my byf (the one with the issue). I figured the hold open issues had something to do with the brass denting, getting caught between the bolt and breach, and leaving shavings everywhere

guess not! would you advise I just replace the hold open before trying to bend the numbered one? afraid of it breaking. I did notice the difference in how high the hold open comes up on the byf compared to my 1918...can anyone post a picture of a properly installed hold open? I might have just put it on this one time wrong, or have been altogether... :/

thank you! if all else fails, I'll be contacting lugerdoc

and noted on server space; I guess I already screwed the pooch on keeping these two topics separate haha. a moderator could delete this and I can restart with 2 different topics

DonVoigt · 05-09-2017, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky Zero

thanks guys. I'm out of town for the next week-ish but I'll post a picture of the trigger as soon as I get back! (life of an airline pilot).

the hold open is numbered to my byf (the one with the issue). I figured the hold open issues had something to do with the brass denting, getting caught between the bolt and breach, and leaving shavings everywhere

guess not! would you advise I just replace the hold open before trying to bend the numbered one? afraid of it breaking. I did notice the difference in how high the hold open comes up on the byf compared to my 1918...can anyone post a picture of a properly installed hold open? I might have just put it on this one time wrong, or have been altogether... :/

thank you! if all else fails, I'll be contacting lugerdoc

and noted on server space; I guess I already screwed the pooch on keeping these two topics separate haha. a moderator could delete this and I can restart with 2 different topics

You can't "bend" the hold open; the spring yes. I don't think you can put it in wrong either- and still be able to assemble it.

Take it out, it is not needed to function, clean all the brass out and fire it some more. If you still have brass shavings, something else is wrong( probably is, as the hold open should not cause this type problem).

If that shows no problem, swap the hold open from the 1918 to the BYF, see if it functions correctly.

Sky Zero · 05-09-2017, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

You can't "bend" the hold open; the spring yes. I don't think you can put it in wrong either- and still be able to assemble it.

Take it out, it is not needed to function, clean all the brass out and fire it some more. If you still have brass shavings, something else is wrong( probably is, as the hold open should not cause this type problem).

If that shows no problem, swap the hold open from the 1918 to the BYF, see if it functions correctly.

thanks. yeah, that's what I meant with the bending. I'm still a newbie.i will try that!

ithacaartist · 05-10-2017, 12:19 AM

Check your extractor. If a claw is broken, it will bias the empty round to one side where it encounters corners and edges inside the action. I've had empties that displayed burrs on the lee sides of karate chops to the brass--from which the next step would be to knock those burrs off to create shavings inside the action.

My stainless Luger chopped a burr on, or at least dented the case mouth of all empties. By indexing with a Sharpie, I found it was happening on the left side. The extractor Claw's left side was longer, and would yank the empty out in that direction, and slam it against the inside wall of the open action. Yup, sure enough, there's a 90 degree corner in there--nice and sharp.

Dressing the claw with a diamond needle file evened things out enough to minimize the problem. I didn't want to go too far because stainless extractors are made of "unobtainium." The empties all still have a shiny spot, and maybe a small deformation,--but not enough, I think, that reloading won't fix it.

Lugerdoc · 05-10-2017, 11:07 AM

Sky, I do have new PO8 HO springs in stock @$25 postpaid. Also have new trigger springs @$5 or used @$3. You might want to check Facebook for installation instruction or you can send me your luger for full inspection, diagnosis, test firing and return S&H @$100. TH

Sky Zero · 05-10-2017, 01:37 PM

Ithaca, I'll definitely check the extractor and see what's going on with that. GT shot the top section of my byf on a different frame and I think it worked alright for him, but I'm going to be looking into that extractor..if all else fails, lugerdoc might be the option I go with. does anything come to mind with the byf issue i described earlier with the brass and such and the hold open?

lugerdoc, what do you think about the trigger assembly moving back and forth and the lower tensioned trigger spring on the 1918 over the byf? think the movement is from a weak spring or possible wearing? I won't be home for another few days to snap a picture of the trigger.

G.T. · 05-10-2017, 03:24 PM

Hi to all, yes, I installed a new extractor spring, and the extractor looked great?... It did display some mag sensitivity, but when I used my test GTHQ upgraded Mec-Gar, it ran flawlessly and locked open ..... I think the issue is probably/ could be, the mainspring, and until that is removed and measured, we are always going to wonder.... I only had the top half to test, .. If there is something wrong with the extractor, I couldn't see it?... Also, the hold open issue could have an effect on the last round ejection as well?... I think the suggestion to swap out frames and see what happens is the best solution attempt yet....best to all, til...lat'r....GT...

4 Scale · 05-10-2017, 11:02 PM

G.T. once assisted me with a '38 Mauser that would not reliably hold open. We improved performance by taking a couple coils off the mainspring, but this did not 100% cure the issue. G.T. then found a Mec Gar magazine with a very slightly larger follower button than typical. That magazine fixed it.

But, after a few months, the issue returned. Experimentation showed that a stronger magazine spring in that one magazine would again cause the hold-open to work reliably 100% of the time, so G.T. changed to a stronger spring. For the last couple years, the hold open has worked reliably with this stronger spring in the one magazine. Use of any other magazine, including Mec Gars with a stronger spring, and the hold-open does not work reliability.

I have found that measuring the height of the hold-open above the frame with an empty mag inserted and the upper removed, is a useful indicator of how the hold-open will perform. With the hold open clearly projecting above the frame, it works. When it sits flush with or slightly above/below the frame, it does not work.

As you might imagine, G.T. and I sent numerous parts and the frame back and forth several times in pursuing the fix(es). It was actually fun to work through the issues and quite satisfying when we got the pistol to function reliably.

For me at least the moral of the story is hold open issues can be a bit of a challenge and may have multiple causes and fixes. Hope this helps, good luck.

G.T. · 05-10-2017, 11:23 PM

Hi Greg, Yes, I remember that one very well! It really fought us and I remember we were very happy to get it to work under any circumstance?

.... Nothing made any sense, everything we tried seemed to further cloud the issue... Sometimes, it can really be a difficult task to repair, other times, one part adjustment and your done!

..... best to you Greg, I hope all is well with you and yours! til....lat'r.....GT.....

Sky Zero · 05-11-2017, 04:02 PM

Thanks GT and 4 scale! might be a silly question because I'm still new, but would it be fine to try my byf upper on my '18 dwm lower? I'll see if I can narrow down the issue. the main spring is complete greek to me

DonVoigt · 05-11-2017, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky Zero

Thanks GT and 4 scale! might be a silly question because I'm still new, but would it be fine to try my byf upper on my '18 dwm lower? I'll see if I can narrow down the issue. the main spring is complete greek to me

ABsolutely!
As long as they slide together easily; sometimes tolerances go against you and they won't fit.

Sky Zero · 05-12-2017, 01:00 AM

cool, thanks don! going to try some swapping and see what happens. I'll have the trigger posted hopefully soon

Sky Zero · 05-15-2017, 10:30 PM

Ok gentleman, I am back from being out of town with a video of the trigger issue I'm having on my 1918 dwm and a few pictures, not sure if those will help. Anway, brief overview: I get this weird clicking when I pull the trigger but it doesn't seem to happen when I have it all the way pushed in. It's a little sloppy and slides around a little (as seen in the video) but it was a little better when I put my BYF spring onto this one... so I definitely need a new spring... but I'm still having trouble figuring out what's causing it to be so loose and what the clicking is from. I put the DWM side plate on my BYF and no clicking, so I don't think it's that. Anyway, here they are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-BN...ature=youtu.be

05-09-2017, 12:57 AM	#1
Sky Zero User Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 308 Thanks: 134 Thanked 43 Times in 30 Posts	2 questions: Trigger spring and Hold open issue Good evening/morning ladies and gentlemen, I figured I'd ask two questions on one thread to save some server space. First question of two: My newly acquired 1918 has a trigger that moves side to side quite a lot more than my '41 byf, to a point where it feels like it's clicking (until I push it back to its place). This is happening WITH the side plate on and the actual trigger pull itself has much less tension than the byf. I'm curious if this is a spring issue and requires replacement? If so, who/where is a good place to get a good replacement? Second question: On my '41 byf, I'm having a slight issue with the hold open. About 30-45% of the time my hold open doesn't catch on the last round; It catches every single time with an empty magazine. I'm using 2 fairly new mec-gar magazines, as well as the original FXO mag and they all have the same result. Also, I'm using Winchester White Box, my main man Mr. G.T. replaced both the extractor spring and the ejector (you're the best, GT ), and I'm unsure of whether or not the main spring has been changed. The bullets that are ejecting are hitting my head, not going far, and the brass is dented and leaving brass shavings all over the inner workings of my pistol. Also, it's clean underneath the hold open spring. Also, forgot to mention, sometimes the shells will get caught between the bolt and the breach. ONCE IN MAYBE 30 shots, the hold open will activate will some bullets still in the mag. Any ideas?? Much appreciated, guys! First 3 photos show the magazine inside the gun WITHOUT pushing up on the bottom. Attached Thumbnails

05-09-2017, 12:59 AM	#2
Sky Zero User Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 308 Thanks: 134 Thanked 43 Times in 30 Posts	last 2 photos show the magazine and hold open WITH me pushing up on the base of the mag. Attached Thumbnails

05-09-2017, 12:59 AM	#3
Sky Zero User Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 308 Thanks: 134 Thanked 43 Times in 30 Posts	not sure if these photos help. Thanks. Attached Thumbnails

05-09-2017, 02:17 PM	#5
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	I agree on the trigger. If all else is ok on the hold open, it may be riding just a little too high, or the spring may be weak, or a replacement spring that is not pushing it down when it should. I don't like the sound of brass in the action- unless you want to learn a "lot" about lugers, I suggest you send your mauser to lugerdoc and let him sort it out. You did not mention if both were matching or not. Posts are cheap, it may be better to do a separate post for these two different lugers with very different and multiple problems- otherwise it will get confusing to all of us and you really quickly! JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

05-09-2017, 02:19 PM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	I don't think I've seen a magazine hold-open rise that far if properly installed. IIRC, it mounts down on and slightly hooks on a little pin that the lever then rotates on. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-09-2017, 02:07 PM	#4
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,272 Thanks: 2,692 Thanked 959 Times in 705 Posts	The trigger on a Luger should not be moving sideways once the spring is seated, and the side plate is installed. What does your trigger return spring look like?? Sound like your spring has been replaced, as std. Luger trigger return springs apply a good bit of forward tension to the trigger. What does the trigger look like out of the gun?? I am wondering if yours has an inordinate amount of wear. Remove the side plate, the trigger and return spring, and give us a photo of the parts, and the area where they install. Perhaps we can find the problem. Lugerdoc(Tom) has trigger return springs I believe. I fear that there is more to your problem than a return spring, but the photos will help decide.

05-09-2017, 03:41 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	The spring on the hold open is caught down below. I am surprised you can fire it. As you push the spring forward, use a pin or something and slightly raise as you push it, it should click into place. BTW, you didn't save any server space, you made 4 postings in one thread for four pictures Seriously, unless you make an inordinate amount of blah blah postings, the server space by text is very small.

05-09-2017, 03:53 PM	#8
Sky Zero User Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 308 Thanks: 134 Thanked 43 Times in 30 Posts	thanks guys. I'm out of town for the next week-ish but I'll post a picture of the trigger as soon as I get back! (life of an airline pilot). the hold open is numbered to my byf (the one with the issue). I figured the hold open issues had something to do with the brass denting, getting caught between the bolt and breach, and leaving shavings everywhere guess not! would you advise I just replace the hold open before trying to bend the numbered one? afraid of it breaking. I did notice the difference in how high the hold open comes up on the byf compared to my 1918...can anyone post a picture of a properly installed hold open? I might have just put it on this one time wrong, or have been altogether... :/ thank you! if all else fails, I'll be contacting lugerdoc and noted on server space; I guess I already screwed the pooch on keeping these two topics separate haha. a moderator could delete this and I can restart with 2 different topics

05-10-2017, 12:19 AM	#11
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,289 Thanks: 7,043 Thanked 2,482 Times in 1,323 Posts	Check your extractor. If a claw is broken, it will bias the empty round to one side where it encounters corners and edges inside the action. I've had empties that displayed burrs on the lee sides of karate chops to the brass--from which the next step would be to knock those burrs off to create shavings inside the action. My stainless Luger chopped a burr on, or at least dented the case mouth of all empties. By indexing with a Sharpie, I found it was happening on the left side. The extractor Claw's left side was longer, and would yank the empty out in that direction, and slam it against the inside wall of the open action. Yup, sure enough, there's a 90 degree corner in there--nice and sharp. Dressing the claw with a diamond needle file evened things out enough to minimize the problem. I didn't want to go too far because stainless extractors are made of "unobtainium." The empties all still have a shiny spot, and maybe a small deformation,--but not enough, I think, that reloading won't fix it. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

05-10-2017, 11:07 AM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Sky, I do have new PO8 HO springs in stock @$25 postpaid. Also have new trigger springs @$5 or used @$3. You might want to check Facebook for installation instruction or you can send me your luger for full inspection, diagnosis, test firing and return S&H @$100. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-10-2017, 01:37 PM	#13
Sky Zero User Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 308 Thanks: 134 Thanked 43 Times in 30 Posts	Ithaca, I'll definitely check the extractor and see what's going on with that. GT shot the top section of my byf on a different frame and I think it worked alright for him, but I'm going to be looking into that extractor..if all else fails, lugerdoc might be the option I go with. does anything come to mind with the byf issue i described earlier with the brass and such and the hold open? lugerdoc, what do you think about the trigger assembly moving back and forth and the lower tensioned trigger spring on the 1918 over the byf? think the movement is from a weak spring or possible wearing? I won't be home for another few days to snap a picture of the trigger.

05-10-2017, 03:24 PM	#14
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,284 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	byf top Hi to all, yes, I installed a new extractor spring, and the extractor looked great?... It did display some mag sensitivity, but when I used my test GTHQ upgraded Mec-Gar, it ran flawlessly and locked open ..... I think the issue is probably/ could be, the mainspring, and until that is removed and measured, we are always going to wonder.... I only had the top half to test, .. If there is something wrong with the extractor, I couldn't see it?... Also, the hold open issue could have an effect on the last round ejection as well?... I think the suggestion to swap out frames and see what happens is the best solution attempt yet....best to all, til...lat'r....GT...

05-10-2017, 11:02 PM	#15
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	G.T. once assisted me with a '38 Mauser that would not reliably hold open. We improved performance by taking a couple coils off the mainspring, but this did not 100% cure the issue. G.T. then found a Mec Gar magazine with a very slightly larger follower button than typical. That magazine fixed it. But, after a few months, the issue returned. Experimentation showed that a stronger magazine spring in that one magazine would again cause the hold-open to work reliably 100% of the time, so G.T. changed to a stronger spring. For the last couple years, the hold open has worked reliably with this stronger spring in the one magazine. Use of any other magazine, including Mec Gars with a stronger spring, and the hold-open does not work reliability. I have found that measuring the height of the hold-open above the frame with an empty mag inserted and the upper removed, is a useful indicator of how the hold-open will perform. With the hold open clearly projecting above the frame, it works. When it sits flush with or slightly above/below the frame, it does not work. As you might imagine, G.T. and I sent numerous parts and the frame back and forth several times in pursuing the fix(es). It was actually fun to work through the issues and quite satisfying when we got the pistol to function reliably. For me at least the moral of the story is hold open issues can be a bit of a challenge and may have multiple causes and fixes. Hope this helps, good luck.

05-10-2017, 11:23 PM	#16
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,284 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	holdopen woes! Hi Greg, Yes, I remember that one very well! It really fought us and I remember we were very happy to get it to work under any circumstance? .... Nothing made any sense, everything we tried seemed to further cloud the issue... Sometimes, it can really be a difficult task to repair, other times, one part adjustment and your done! ..... best to you Greg, I hope all is well with you and yours! til....lat'r.....GT.....

05-11-2017, 04:02 PM	#17
Sky Zero User Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 308 Thanks: 134 Thanked 43 Times in 30 Posts	Thanks GT and 4 scale! might be a silly question because I'm still new, but would it be fine to try my byf upper on my '18 dwm lower? I'll see if I can narrow down the issue. the main spring is complete greek to me

05-12-2017, 01:00 AM	#19
Sky Zero User Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 308 Thanks: 134 Thanked 43 Times in 30 Posts	cool, thanks don! going to try some swapping and see what happens. I'll have the trigger posted hopefully soon

05-15-2017, 10:30 PM	#20
Sky Zero User Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 308 Thanks: 134 Thanked 43 Times in 30 Posts	Ok gentleman, I am back from being out of town with a video of the trigger issue I'm having on my 1918 dwm and a few pictures, not sure if those will help. Anway, brief overview: I get this weird clicking when I pull the trigger but it doesn't seem to happen when I have it all the way pushed in. It's a little sloppy and slides around a little (as seen in the video) but it was a little better when I put my BYF spring onto this one... so I definitely need a new spring... but I'm still having trouble figuring out what's causing it to be so loose and what the clicking is from. I put the DWM side plate on my BYF and no clicking, so I don't think it's that. Anyway, here they are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-BN...ature=youtu.be Attached Thumbnails