Chinese Red 9

DocSkunk · 03-24-2017, 01:40 PM

Picked this up the other day for a good price. Its a Red 9 chambered in 9mm. It started its life in 1910 according to the serial number. At some point i guess it was sent to china is my guess and was re-chambered into 9mm and marked up to look like a original Red 9. Not sure how rare it it is. But its in decent shape. The box im not sure if Repo i know the leather on the outside is. Could be wrong. Only issue is the hammer wont lock back, im currently investigating on why. Its all matching but the bolt, not sure on grips yet and internals.

alanint · 03-24-2017, 02:07 PM

This is a Chinese re import that somebody here added reproduction Red 9 grips to. The stock also looks like a reproduction. Factory converted 9mms have the 500 yard, rather than the 1000 yard rear sight. This is typical of many pistols I have seen where rigs were put together from various components, once it was imported into the US. They look nice and are decent shooters.

DocSkunk · 03-27-2017, 11:19 AM

Alanint was right. There are a few parts that dont match. mag floorplate, locking block, bolt, grips are repo. I dont think this is truly a 9mm. more likely a 7.63mm Mauser round. My 9mm snap caps swim in the mag well, but load and eject just fine when cycled manually. The people who owned prior to me according to there records it was bought in 1992 as a Red 9. They got took, still a nice pistol. I took it apart and found the sear wasnt connected fixed that real fast shes fully working. Not sure if im going to keep it, im not a fan of rare calibers. Maybe trade bait who knows.

DonVoigt · 03-27-2017, 01:01 PM

How the snap caps fit in the mag well will not be an indication of the caliber; "real" red 9s used the same frame as the .30 Mauser cartridge(which is longer).

alvin · 03-27-2017, 07:55 PM

It's American Red 9. It's converted to 9m/m in the US.

Historically, Chinese were not hot on 9m/m. Red 9, although being a common variation, is very rare in China. The reason is unclear. In theory, international surplus gun dealers could dump Red 9s to Chinese warlords in 1920s, just like they dumped so many prewar and wartime 7.63m/m, but somehow that did not happen.

alvin · 03-27-2017, 10:36 PM

Chinese C96 is a sub-specialized domain. Not hot in the US, much cheaper than nice German samples.

[edit] pix removed. all sold.

DocSkunk · 07-17-2017, 12:44 AM

I took it out to the range the other day just to say i shot a broom handle. Fired two rounds and stopped because i ran into a issue. Maybe someone can help. Snap caps i used cycled well and ejected well. When using live ammo i think im having an ejection issue or the brass expanse to much for the extractor to pull it. Fired one round and the brass shell was stuck. I got it out and chalked it up as a fluke and chambered a second found and same issue this one i couldnt get out with my fingers i used a cleaning rod when i got home to pop out the casing. I hate to think i shot the wrong caliber out of this pistol and this really is a 30 luger. if it is id rather get some ammo. If anyone thinks its something else please chime in.

alvin · 07-17-2017, 04:58 AM

It's a common problem on C&R with very worn chamber. That's one reason you want to test fire guns even on high condition collectible samples. There are other ways to tell with accurate measurement tools, but firing is the easiest way to tell problem.

On expensive guns, problem like this is very sorry and will make it a looking-only piece. But on this one, it does not hurt to redo the chamber.

alvin · 07-17-2017, 07:04 AM

BTW, if trying to find a shooter, consider this one in the following link -- with a replaced bolt stop, revarnished stock, it's a beautiful shooter. You can sell that aftermarket pistol case separately to reduce your cost, and keep the gun for range shooting, I bet it works perfectly. Money much better spend on this one than fixing that broken one. Only one trap -- If other bidders want it as a collectible, let them have it. You should bid it as a shooter.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/667929446

Lugerdoc · 07-17-2017, 12:19 PM

When these surplus, well used German C96s were being imported from China, I had many of them bored out to 9mm and reblued as shooters. Unforturnately, if the chambers were as eroded as yours, the only cure was to have them bored out AND relined back to 7.63mm. Those I usually stripped out for parts. TH

Kyrie · 07-17-2017, 12:46 PM

"Red Nine" is a term made up by collectors as a kind of verbal shorthand to refer to any of the approximately 135,000 C96 pistols ordered by the Imperial German Army, chambered for the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge, with a 50 - 500 meter rear tangent sight, numbered in the separate serial number range of 1 to (circa) 135000.

What you have is not a Red Nine. It looks like it started out in life as a pre-war commercial. It was originally chambered for the 7.63x25 Mauser, and may or may not have been converted to 9x19 Parabellum. The only way to know for sure what cartridge it is chambered for at present is to take a chamber cast.

My best advice, offered entirely FWIW, is don't shoot it until you are absolutely sure what cartridge it is chambered for. Be aware that a C96 chambered for the 7.63x25 will chamber and fire a 9x19 Luger cartridge. Not safe, not wise, but physically possible.

Be careful, friend. The only thing between the bolt of a C96 and your front teeth is the bolt stop. Let's not test our luck :-)

Best,

Kyrie

alvin · 07-17-2017, 02:12 PM

I am still on a research of "why Red 9 did not prevail in warlord China". For Red 9's production volume, in theory, there should be many found in China. But reality is no. Red 9 is rarer than 6-shot C96s, rarer than MM-31s in a few big Chinese collections. Don't know why..

Kyrie · 07-17-2017, 05:06 PM

Alvin,

That’s a fairly easy question to answer.

The Red Nine C96s were all Imperial (and later Weimar) German Army property. Those Imperial contract 9 mm C96 pistols not converted to comply with the Versailles treaty were collected and destroyed. There simply weren't many Red Nine C96 pistols available to sell China.

The vast majority of C96 pistols that ended up in China were pre and post Great war commercial production sold commercially (via Japan factors)to buyers in China. DocSkunk’s gun is a good example of one of the pre-war commercial guns procured for sale in China.

The pre-WWII Chinese market for handguns chambered for the 9 mm Luger cartridge was almost non-existent because the 9 mm Luger cartridge was largely non-existent in China at that time. It was not until the second world war, and the attempt by England to introduce the Inglis Variant of the Browning P.35, that any significant amount of 9 mm Luger ammunition became available in China. Not that even then the attempt to introduce the Inglis to China was not a big success with most of the pistols actually sent to the Far East ending up in India.

The relative scarcity of 9 mm Parabellum ammunition, along with the plentitude of 7.63x25 Mauser, is why we never see any C96s produced in China (like the Hanyang, in the slide show link below) chambered for the 9 mm Luger:

http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Kyr...g%20C96?sort=9

Best,

Kyrie

alvin · 07-17-2017, 07:52 PM

I thought about international treaty constraints. But...

Versailles constraints theory is hard to explain those German WWI surplus Bergmann MP-18 submachine guns falling into Chinese warlords hands. Those were 9mm, Chinese called them "Floral Barrel Machine Gun", or "Hand-hold Machine Gun", and also made a bunch of copies of those in 1920s and early 30s. There are also some 9mm Lugers imported, not many, but I have seen more 9mm Lugers than 9mm C96 in Chinese context.

So, there were some 9mm weapons. However, when coming to C96, it's rare to see 9mm. A few Bergmann copies that I saw in museums were 7.63mm, not faithfully following the original German sample's caliber.

DonVoigt · 07-17-2017, 08:16 PM

Likely because the Germans "kept" the 9mm in their inventory, and sold off the .30 mauser Broomhandles- simplified ammo logistics for the Weimar boys.

Kyrie · 07-17-2017, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Likely because the Germans "kept" the 9mm in their inventory, and sold off the .30 mauser Broomhandles- simplified ammo logistics for the Weimar boys.

Purely FYI, the Imperial German Army had an inventory of C96 pistols in 9 mm Parabellum via the Red Nine contract, but never purchased for issue the C96 in 7.63 Mauser and had no inventory of such C96s.

What was a common practice in some of the German States (and especially in Prussia) was to unofficially buy 7.63 C96s, offer these guns for commercial purchase to serving German soldiers who had duties that did not permit them to carry/use a rifle. Effectively it was an operation similar to the US Army PX system, and war time C96 variants with Imperial inspection acceptance stamps that were the private property of the serving soldier are fairly common (many with the Prussian eagle on the front of the magazine well or the bottom of the trigger guard, directly under the trigger).

alvin · 07-17-2017, 08:39 PM

For long time, Chinese thought this type of pistol was Czech made. It was Czech surplus gun dealers moved lots of these into China in 1920s. Due to dealers being Czech, many Chinese naturally thought C96 was a Czech pistol. Including Chiang Kai-shek. Amazing.

It was not popular in prewar era, but became popular in 1920s,,, the gap was big. The factor filled in that gap must be price.. those Czech moved surplus C96s must be relatively cheap. After surplus supply dried out, Mauser could start sell some newly made expensive guns on established market... many via Japanese trading companies.

Kyrie · 07-17-2017, 08:59 PM

International treaty constraints were an obstacle to the sale of long arms to the Chinese, beginning shortly after 1911. These constraints were extended, to some degree, to handguns which is why the Mauser C96s that went to China mostly did so via factors in Japan. In today’s parlance, Japan was regarded as the official end user – think of it as straw purchases on a grand scale.

But the major block to German sale of Imperial contract C96s (i.e. Red Nine C96s) remained the fact that they were war material and government property. This is the same obstacle to Imperial Army MP-18 submachine guns being sold or exported to any buyer, so I’m inclined to doubt any of the Imperial Army MP-18s were sold to anyone, including China

Let’s remember that the MP-18 wasn’t purchased by the imperial German Army until 1918, and of the roughly 50,000 MP-18s ordered by the Imperial German Army only about 10,000 were actually delivered before the end of the War. There were an estimated 30,000 MP 18s produced before the end of the War, but with only 10,000 delivered that leaves 20,000 not delivered to the (former) Imperial German Army that went somewhere – and that “somewhere” may well have been partially to Japan for resale in China. Again commercial sale of arms that were never property of the German Army or government, and not military surplus.

Regarding the Bergman submachine guns you have seen in China chambered for the .30 Mauser, they may have been of domestic Chinese production or of Swiss origin as SIG bought the license to produce the MP-18 from Bermann, and produced a significant number in 7.63 Mauser (a well as 7.65 Parabellum) for export.

To bring this full circle back to the C96, the Austrian MP-34, chambered for the 9x25 Mauser Export cartridge, is a descendent of the Bergmann MP-18 – as was the Spanish Naranjero, chambered for the 9x23 Largo (AKA 9 mm Bergmann).

The tale of the MP-18 is almost incestuous :-)

alvin · 07-17-2017, 09:17 PM

There are both German MP-18 and Chinese copies there. How did those restricted German SMG got there is unclear. Warlord making copies of MP-18 started in 1920s. It's not as widespread as C96 though, due to its ammo consumption rate, only elite troops had it. C96 was more like everyone had one. Warlord's "handgun battalion" and "handgun regiment" were full of those pistols. Big warlord even had "handgun brigade". But there is no SMG unit, at least, I have never heard of it. Warlord's financial would not support universally distributing SMG, although its structure is much simpler to copy than C96.

9x25 caliber was not popular in China either. I have not seen Chinese C96 sample firing it yet.

Kyrie · 07-17-2017, 09:33 PM

Sorry, but I’m just not seeing the German MP-18 submachine guns in China as ever having been German Army property, or ever having been restricted as were German military arms.

C96 pistols chambered for the 9x25 Mauser Export are rare everywhere. Not as rare as C96s in 8.15 mm, but close.

The 9x25 Mauser cartridge really only became popular in submachine guns, and 9x25 submachine guns were more popular in South America than anyplace else. Pity, as it was a great submachine gun cartridge.

The attempt to resurrect the 9x25 Mauser (which was and is one heck of a cartridge) by Winchester (as the 9x23 Winchester) failed miserably. Today, I think the closest thing we have to the 9x25 Mauser that is any kind of a commercial success is the 10 mm Auto (esp. in the Buffalo Bore loadings).

I’d love to have something like the M1 carbine (or a Luger carbine!) in 10 mm Auto.

03-27-2017, 11:19 AM	#3
DocSkunk User Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 25 Thanks: 5 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Alanint was right. There are a few parts that dont match. mag floorplate, locking block, bolt, grips are repo. I dont think this is truly a 9mm. more likely a 7.63mm Mauser round. My 9mm snap caps swim in the mag well, but load and eject just fine when cycled manually. The people who owned prior to me according to there records it was bought in 1992 as a Red 9. They got took, still a nice pistol. I took it apart and found the sear wasnt connected fixed that real fast shes fully working. Not sure if im going to keep it, im not a fan of rare calibers. Maybe trade bait who knows. __________________ Just like a skunk, I spray and pray...with abit of aim. Hail Odin the All Father and Hail Tyr may they bless my weapons of war and keep my aim true. Looking for mag: SN 7887 SN 6728 Have: SN 1207 wood bottom. SN 6024

03-27-2017, 01:01 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	How the snap caps fit in the mag well will not be an indication of the caliber; "real" red 9s used the same frame as the .30 Mauser cartridge(which is longer). __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-27-2017, 10:36 PM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Chinese C96 is a sub-specialized domain. Not hot in the US, much cheaper than nice German samples. [edit] pix removed. all sold. Last edited by alvin; 07-17-2017 at 05:06 AM.

07-17-2017, 12:44 AM	#7
DocSkunk User Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 25 Thanks: 5 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	I took it out to the range the other day just to say i shot a broom handle. Fired two rounds and stopped because i ran into a issue. Maybe someone can help. Snap caps i used cycled well and ejected well. When using live ammo i think im having an ejection issue or the brass expanse to much for the extractor to pull it. Fired one round and the brass shell was stuck. I got it out and chalked it up as a fluke and chambered a second found and same issue this one i couldnt get out with my fingers i used a cleaning rod when i got home to pop out the casing. I hate to think i shot the wrong caliber out of this pistol and this really is a 30 luger. if it is id rather get some ammo. If anyone thinks its something else please chime in. __________________ Just like a skunk, I spray and pray...with abit of aim. Hail Odin the All Father and Hail Tyr may they bless my weapons of war and keep my aim true. Looking for mag: SN 7887 SN 6728 Have: SN 1207 wood bottom. SN 6024

07-17-2017, 12:19 PM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	When these surplus, well used German C96s were being imported from China, I had many of them bored out to 9mm and reblued as shooters. Unforturnately, if the chambers were as eroded as yours, the only cure was to have them bored out AND relined back to 7.63mm. Those I usually stripped out for parts. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-24-2017, 02:07 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	This is a Chinese re import that somebody here added reproduction Red 9 grips to. The stock also looks like a reproduction. Factory converted 9mms have the 500 yard, rather than the 1000 yard rear sight. This is typical of many pistols I have seen where rigs were put together from various components, once it was imported into the US. They look nice and are decent shooters.

03-27-2017, 07:55 PM	#5
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	It's American Red 9. It's converted to 9m/m in the US. Historically, Chinese were not hot on 9m/m. Red 9, although being a common variation, is very rare in China. The reason is unclear. In theory, international surplus gun dealers could dump Red 9s to Chinese warlords in 1920s, just like they dumped so many prewar and wartime 7.63m/m, but somehow that did not happen.

07-17-2017, 04:58 AM	#8
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	It's a common problem on C&R with very worn chamber. That's one reason you want to test fire guns even on high condition collectible samples. There are other ways to tell with accurate measurement tools, but firing is the easiest way to tell problem. On expensive guns, problem like this is very sorry and will make it a looking-only piece. But on this one, it does not hurt to redo the chamber.

07-17-2017, 07:04 AM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	BTW, if trying to find a shooter, consider this one in the following link -- with a replaced bolt stop, revarnished stock, it's a beautiful shooter. You can sell that aftermarket pistol case separately to reduce your cost, and keep the gun for range shooting, I bet it works perfectly. Money much better spend on this one than fixing that broken one. Only one trap -- If other bidders want it as a collectible, let them have it. You should bid it as a shooter. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/667929446

07-17-2017, 12:46 PM	#11
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	"Red Nine" is a term made up by collectors as a kind of verbal shorthand to refer to any of the approximately 135,000 C96 pistols ordered by the Imperial German Army, chambered for the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge, with a 50 - 500 meter rear tangent sight, numbered in the separate serial number range of 1 to (circa) 135000. What you have is not a Red Nine. It looks like it started out in life as a pre-war commercial. It was originally chambered for the 7.63x25 Mauser, and may or may not have been converted to 9x19 Parabellum. The only way to know for sure what cartridge it is chambered for at present is to take a chamber cast. My best advice, offered entirely FWIW, is don't shoot it until you are absolutely sure what cartridge it is chambered for. Be aware that a C96 chambered for the 7.63x25 will chamber and fire a 9x19 Luger cartridge. Not safe, not wise, but physically possible. Be careful, friend. The only thing between the bolt of a C96 and your front teeth is the bolt stop. Let's not test our luck :-) Best, Kyrie

07-17-2017, 02:12 PM	#12
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I am still on a research of "why Red 9 did not prevail in warlord China". For Red 9's production volume, in theory, there should be many found in China. But reality is no. Red 9 is rarer than 6-shot C96s, rarer than MM-31s in a few big Chinese collections. Don't know why..

07-17-2017, 05:06 PM	#13
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Alvin, That’s a fairly easy question to answer. The Red Nine C96s were all Imperial (and later Weimar) German Army property. Those Imperial contract 9 mm C96 pistols not converted to comply with the Versailles treaty were collected and destroyed. There simply weren't many Red Nine C96 pistols available to sell China. The vast majority of C96 pistols that ended up in China were pre and post Great war commercial production sold commercially (via Japan factors)to buyers in China. DocSkunk’s gun is a good example of one of the pre-war commercial guns procured for sale in China. The pre-WWII Chinese market for handguns chambered for the 9 mm Luger cartridge was almost non-existent because the 9 mm Luger cartridge was largely non-existent in China at that time. It was not until the second world war, and the attempt by England to introduce the Inglis Variant of the Browning P.35, that any significant amount of 9 mm Luger ammunition became available in China. Not that even then the attempt to introduce the Inglis to China was not a big success with most of the pistols actually sent to the Far East ending up in India. The relative scarcity of 9 mm Parabellum ammunition, along with the plentitude of 7.63x25 Mauser, is why we never see any C96s produced in China (like the Hanyang, in the slide show link below) chambered for the 9 mm Luger: http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Kyr...g%20C96?sort=9 Best, Kyrie

07-17-2017, 07:52 PM	#14
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I thought about international treaty constraints. But... Versailles constraints theory is hard to explain those German WWI surplus Bergmann MP-18 submachine guns falling into Chinese warlords hands. Those were 9mm, Chinese called them "Floral Barrel Machine Gun", or "Hand-hold Machine Gun", and also made a bunch of copies of those in 1920s and early 30s. There are also some 9mm Lugers imported, not many, but I have seen more 9mm Lugers than 9mm C96 in Chinese context. So, there were some 9mm weapons. However, when coming to C96, it's rare to see 9mm. A few Bergmann copies that I saw in museums were 7.63mm, not faithfully following the original German sample's caliber.

07-17-2017, 08:16 PM	#15
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	Likely because the Germans "kept" the 9mm in their inventory, and sold off the .30 mauser Broomhandles- simplified ammo logistics for the Weimar boys. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-17-2017, 08:39 PM	#17
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	For long time, Chinese thought this type of pistol was Czech made. It was Czech surplus gun dealers moved lots of these into China in 1920s. Due to dealers being Czech, many Chinese naturally thought C96 was a Czech pistol. Including Chiang Kai-shek. Amazing. It was not popular in prewar era, but became popular in 1920s,,, the gap was big. The factor filled in that gap must be price.. those Czech moved surplus C96s must be relatively cheap. After surplus supply dried out, Mauser could start sell some newly made expensive guns on established market... many via Japanese trading companies.

07-17-2017, 08:59 PM	#18
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	International treaty constraints were an obstacle to the sale of long arms to the Chinese, beginning shortly after 1911. These constraints were extended, to some degree, to handguns which is why the Mauser C96s that went to China mostly did so via factors in Japan. In today’s parlance, Japan was regarded as the official end user – think of it as straw purchases on a grand scale. But the major block to German sale of Imperial contract C96s (i.e. Red Nine C96s) remained the fact that they were war material and government property. This is the same obstacle to Imperial Army MP-18 submachine guns being sold or exported to any buyer, so I’m inclined to doubt any of the Imperial Army MP-18s were sold to anyone, including China Let’s remember that the MP-18 wasn’t purchased by the imperial German Army until 1918, and of the roughly 50,000 MP-18s ordered by the Imperial German Army only about 10,000 were actually delivered before the end of the War. There were an estimated 30,000 MP 18s produced before the end of the War, but with only 10,000 delivered that leaves 20,000 not delivered to the (former) Imperial German Army that went somewhere – and that “somewhere” may well have been partially to Japan for resale in China. Again commercial sale of arms that were never property of the German Army or government, and not military surplus. Regarding the Bergman submachine guns you have seen in China chambered for the .30 Mauser, they may have been of domestic Chinese production or of Swiss origin as SIG bought the license to produce the MP-18 from Bermann, and produced a significant number in 7.63 Mauser (a well as 7.65 Parabellum) for export. To bring this full circle back to the C96, the Austrian MP-34, chambered for the 9x25 Mauser Export cartridge, is a descendent of the Bergmann MP-18 – as was the Spanish Naranjero, chambered for the 9x23 Largo (AKA 9 mm Bergmann). The tale of the MP-18 is almost incestuous :-)

07-17-2017, 09:17 PM	#19
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	There are both German MP-18 and Chinese copies there. How did those restricted German SMG got there is unclear. Warlord making copies of MP-18 started in 1920s. It's not as widespread as C96 though, due to its ammo consumption rate, only elite troops had it. C96 was more like everyone had one. Warlord's "handgun battalion" and "handgun regiment" were full of those pistols. Big warlord even had "handgun brigade". But there is no SMG unit, at least, I have never heard of it. Warlord's financial would not support universally distributing SMG, although its structure is much simpler to copy than C96. 9x25 caliber was not popular in China either. I have not seen Chinese C96 sample firing it yet.

07-17-2017, 09:33 PM	#20
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Sorry, but I’m just not seeing the German MP-18 submachine guns in China as ever having been German Army property, or ever having been restricted as were German military arms. C96 pistols chambered for the 9x25 Mauser Export are rare everywhere. Not as rare as C96s in 8.15 mm, but close. The 9x25 Mauser cartridge really only became popular in submachine guns, and 9x25 submachine guns were more popular in South America than anyplace else. Pity, as it was a great submachine gun cartridge. The attempt to resurrect the 9x25 Mauser (which was and is one heck of a cartridge) by Winchester (as the 9x23 Winchester) failed miserably. Today, I think the closest thing we have to the 9x25 Mauser that is any kind of a commercial success is the 10 mm Auto (esp. in the Buffalo Bore loadings). I’d love to have something like the M1 carbine (or a Luger carbine!) in 10 mm Auto.