Looking for more info. BYF 41 SN-3877

[Yukon Jack]

I am new to the Luger forum and also a new collector just getting started. I have recently acquired my first Luger and am looking for more information on it. I know a little bit about it assuming the information I have been told is correct. All serial numbers match except for the 2 mags. Picture quality may not be that good as all I have available at this time is my phone. I can get higher res. pics. later if necessary.

[gunnertwo]

Buy this book, first. I know, you already bought your first P.08. This will tell you a mountain of info and is worth the price on the secondary market. It will save you money on future purchases. Place a want to buy on the collector forums, one may turn up at a reasonable price.

"The Mauser Parabellum 1930-1946, Analysis of a Million Luger Pistols"

Welcome to the collecting world!

G2

[Bill_in_VA]

I've got no connection to the seller other than being a satisfied customer, but Gunshowbooks.com has it in stock for $349 which is about as cheap as I've seen it in a while.
http://www.gunshowbooks.com/cgi-bin/...7&sid=NX6N7FeJ
HTH

[DavidJayUden]

YJ:
Get us some good photos and we'll tell you all that we can. Also, if you have specific questions, comments, gun history or doubts, be sure to add them.
Congratulations on your first Luger, and Welcome to the forum!
dju

[guns3545]

Jack,

First welcome to the Forum.

There is a lot of help here and its relatively easy to tap. But.. although I will not harangue you about buying books, I must tell you that photos are important, if not indispensable, to us providing assistance to you.

So.. your gun. Well, you know it is a Model P.08 military issue sidearm and in 1941 was standard issue to German Forces. It was made in Oberndorf at the Mauser facility.

Now as to serial number. Are you sure it is 3877?? Is there no scriptic suffix letter under the serial number on the front of the frame??

The serial number of a Model P.08 is made up of the number plus suffix or no suffix; and according to most purists the chamber date or code. That is the unique identifier for a model P.08. This is important because there were about 130,000 P.08s made in 1941, a little over 10,000 per month. If you gun has no suffix, it was made late in the year November to December time frame.

Also around the ns block of 10,000 guns the inspector changed from Eagle 655 Eagle 655 to Eagle 655 Eagle 135.

But you should know that there were about 11-12 other guns marked 41 byf that also used 3877 as the suffixes ranged from the o-block through the alphabet to the b-block.

So you can see that if we had pictures of the right side of the receiver and the front of the frame where the inspector proofs and serial number respectively are shown, it would answer a lot of questions about when the gun was made.

In any case, I hope this helps.

John

[derf0018]

guns3545:

The P.38 was standard issue in 1941
; the P.08 was substitute standard.

Fred

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by derf0018

guns3545:

The P.38 was standard issue in 1941
; the P.08 was substitute standard.

Fred

Fred,

Technically, maybe true. The order formally designating the P.38 as the service standard was signed on April 26, 1940 after the conclusion of the Fourth Variation Zero Series. But Formal Adoption and reality differ. In reality "what was standard" really depended on which branch and type unit.

In 1941, Walther was the only manufacturer actually delivering P.38s and had no where near the capacity to meet the Heereswaffenamt requirements given the decision to fight a multi-fronted war and the rise of Waffen SS units in addition to the Wehrmacht's, Navy's and Luftwaffe's needs, not to mention the Police. Just look at Walther's 1941 production numbers and the manufacturing shakedown that occurred in 1941.

But enough said. Too much time already spent on a subject really not at all relevant to the OP's question.

But if you want to start a discussion on service standards and their evolution, you can always start your own thread.


John

[derf0018]

guns3545:

A good answer, and as you probably already know that only about 140,000 P.38's were mfg. in the 1940/41 period, not nearly enough to supply the German Armed Forces and many P.08's were issued.

Thank you

Fred

[Yukon Jack]

Thank you all for the responses. I seem to be having a problem posting the pictures. I thought
I posted them but they obviously did not attach.

[Yukon Jack]

ok, let's try this again. I think, hope, I have the pictures attached this time.

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by Yukon Jack

ok, let's try this again. I think, hope, I have the pictures attached this time.

Jack,

Nice looking P.08.

The serial number is 3877s, indicating that it was probably made in May of 1941 but that is only an approximation.

The vast majority of the s-block guns were allocated to the Army. Some went to the Airforce and a much lesser number to the Navy.

It probably left the factory with wood grip panels marked with an Eagle 655 stamp rather than the last two digits of the serial number. It was most likely equipped with two extruded blued body and a serialized aluminum based magazines with the spare magazine marked with a +.

Note that I have used the word probably a lot. The reason is that in the year 1941 several changes were made to the delivery spec.

In mid-year there were transitions to the Type 6 black plastic bottom magazine replacing type 4 and 5 magazines.

Also around mid-year, sporadically black plastic grip panels started to appear, replacing the walnut grip panels

Any combination of two or three different types of magazine and two types of grip panels are theoretically possible in this time frame.

You may also want to carefully examine the P.08 stamp on the right side of the frame. Is the punctuation mark between the P and the 08 square or round? This was another transition as the new marking standards came into play. The Heereswaffenamt wanted to make sure that personnel were clearly informed that this was a P.08 and not the new P.38.

Hope this helps.

John

[DavidJayUden]

Jack:
Congratulations! As you know the photos lack clarity for close up exam and nit-picking, however it looks very nice from what I can see. And if you want to spike the collective blood pressure around here just refer to it as a "black widow" model.
Any specific questions?
dju

[K.Wilhelm]

Appears to be a nice, Mauser produced byf 41. Don't know if the grips are real or reproductions. The pistol has a letter suffix to the serial number, but I can't read it.

[mrerick]

If the magazines that came with your Luger are black bakelite based FXO magazines (E/37 WaffenAmt approval) they would be considered correct and matching for your pistol.

Try taking some pictures using a regular digital camera in natural light without the flash. It's easier to judge finish.

Congratulations, and welcome to the addiction!

[Sergio Natali]

For what can be seen from the pictures it looks like a fine gun, especially if it's all matching (except the mags)

Sergio

[Yukon Jack]

Thanks again for the replies. Grips are original according to the gunsmith that looked at it and he did refer to it as a black widow. Can't tell if the punctuation between the P and the 08 is square or round. I know it's a very long shot but if the mag(s) were out there somewhere I certainly would like to acquire them. Any information on the mags I do have would be appreciated. Also are there any references out there that might give detailed information about the gun I have? Branch it was issued to, who it was issued to, etc.?

[guns3545]

Jack,

Thanks for the additional information and pictures.

Unfortunately it is difficult to say where this pistol was issued and used. Most information about provenance comes when a vet has brought it back and supplied information where and how it was captured. Generally speaking, guns that have seen combat are well worn and guns that have not, or have been assigned to non-front line units are in better shape. But these are only assumptions.

In the s-block, about 7400 guns went to the Army, 2400 to the Luftwaffe mainly for Air Defense and Paratroop Units. The Navy received the remaining 200 or so guns. THESE ARE ESTIMATES. There is no good way to know. We used to be able identify Navy guns by their unit markings but this practice was stopped in 1940.

Question: Are both magazines marked the same?. I cannot tell. The lower magazine is a Haenel made (that's code 122), accepted by the inspector located there, Eagle 37. From the serial number it was originally issued with a 1940 code 42 gun. Early byf guns would have been equipped with this magazine type but only to about the p-block. Later guns would have Haenel (code was changed to fxo in 1941), also inspected and accepted by Eagle 37.

The type 6, black plastic base magazines started to appear around mid-year.

Can't tell, but I doubt that the body of the magazine has an upside down P.08 stamped on it. The P.08 marking requirement only came into effect on January 1, 1941.

I don't need to tell you that finding even one matching magazine will be difficult. As I mentioned, this gun was manufactured when the transition from serial numbered to non-serial numbered magazines was occurring, so it is entirely possible that a fxo 37 magazine with an unmarked aluminum bottom would be the type issued originally with the gun. Still difficult to find plain bottom but infinitely easier than finding matching serials.

The fall back plan employed by many collectors would be: "Well it is theoretically possible that a Type 6 magazine would have been issued with the gun, (and besides it already has black plastic grip panels on it) so let me go and buy a couple magazines." This plan is eminently doable. All is takes is a few dollars and care to insure that you are buying an original fxo type 6 magazine. Counterfeits abound!!

Hope this helps.

John

[El Syd]

Jack - beautiful luger. the finish looks great. is it original or has it been re-blued? I'm a newby as well, so hopefully I am not insulting you when I ask this question.

The guys on this forum really know their lugers and have helped me tremendously in my quest for a couple of lugers. Welcome to the forum, syd

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Yukon Jack

This according to the gunsmith that examined it...

Originally Posted by Yukon Jack

Grips are original according to the gunsmith that looked at it and he did refer to it as a black widow...

"Gunsmiths", "dealers", "relatives of the vet who brought it back" stories and descriptions all need to be taken with a grain of salt.

My LGS is a great guy but is not knowledgeable about Lugers or pretty much anything military. He started a business to earn a living, meaning he is a JOATAMON.

John/guns3545 seems knowledgeable and his comments are certainly illuminating. I'm not a collector but what he has told you is way more than any other single Luger I've read about here in six years.

Lugers have passed through many hands over the years. Some owners have 'improved' them by substituting parts that may not have been original. Grips come to mind immediately. Bakelite grips are to my mind more desirable than plastic and can be distinguished by methods described elsewhere in this forum [Search].

Nice Luger; hopefully the first of many.

[DavidJayUden]

Some of the books guys MAY be able to tell you where the bulk of that block of guns went, but honestly those records are pretty scarce. Specifically who got your gun just ain't happenin'.
There is a magazine number list that you can put your numbers down on, and who knows? But it's a long shot.
It is my understanding that the black plastic UNNUMBERED late FXO mags. are also correct, so that is the way most collectors go on these latter guns.
dju