.45 ACP/Shanxi Type 17 Broomhandle

TheRomanhistorian · 12-29-2014, 12:40 PM

So, everyone, I was viewing one of these on Gunbroker and know there's some controversy about them (though I can't imagine the Chinese, even of that period when costs were lower, manufacturing them from scratch, new, just to sell to us!). However, I kind of want one just to add to my Webley, Luger, and Broomhandle collection because it is such an oddball (I have two of the Webley and Scott Mk I .455 Self Loading pistols so why not add another weird gun?).

Is there a good resource for information on them? I've been scouring the different boards and the internet but I find, unfortunately, far more questions than answers. I think it'd be fun to fire one a few times a year (like 3-5 shots a year at most) but mostly it's just for the oddball factor. I was just hoping to find more information as they seem to have gotten very spendy given their uncertain provenance (either original or made out of parts guns as I read somewhere, perhaps one of Alvin's erudite posts on Broomhandles!).

Michael

alvin · 12-29-2014, 01:16 PM

There are two types of Shansei Model 17 .45ACP Broomhandles on today's market: one type was made in late 1920s, another type was post 1980 reproduction. The post-1980 Shansei is more common on the market, I heard merely 300 of them were made. God knows, I have seen no fewer than 100 of them floating on the market over years. Post-1980 Shansei's situation is like Interarms Mauser Parabellum, they are not considered being pure shooters, they are collectibles too. After all, the volume is not huge. Looks to me, post-1980 Shansei's frame was cast iron, and those older Shansei made in 1920-1930 were milled from forged steel. I had a post-1980 Shansei in the past, it did not work smoothly, jammed frequently. That's the functional difference between new Shansei and new Interarms Mauser -- not only my instance had that issue, I heard other people experienced same problem. Obviously, new Shansei was made as a look-only gun. So, if you plan to shoot it occasionally, you will be disappointed. For occasional shooting, better find a Mauser or Astra 900, those in relatively good shape indeed works.

conehammer · 12-30-2014, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

There are two types of Shansei Model 17 .45ACP Broomhandles on today's market: one type was made in late 1920s, another type was post 1980 reproduction. The post-1980 Shansei is more common on the market, I heard merely 300 of them were made. God knows, I have seen no fewer than 100 of them floating on the market over years. Post-1980 Shansei's situation is like Interarms Mauser Parabellum, they are not considered being pure shooters, they are collectibles too. After all, the volume is not huge. Looks to me, post-1980 Shansei's frame was cast iron, and those older Shansei made in 1920-1930 were milled from forged steel. I had a post-1980 Shansei in the past, it did not work smoothly, jammed frequently. That's the functional difference between new Shansei and new Interarms Mauser -- not only my instance had that issue, I heard other people experienced same problem. Obviously, new Shansei was made as a look-only gun. So, if you plan to shoot it occasionally, you will be disappointed. For occasional shooting, better find a Mauser or Astra 900, those in relatively good shape indeed works.

Alvin, clearly you are probably one of the most well informed persons regarding the Shansei Model 17 who I've read.

I have what I must believe is one of the post 1980 examples.
I'm curious regarding your statement that the post 1980 production pieces have a cast iron frame. How did you determine this? I'm no metallurgist and I'm not going to subject mine to exhaustive or destructive testing but the frame certainly does not appear to be a cast or grey iron part. I've machined fine grain cast iron and the surface never quite looks like steel. So either the material used is tyhe finest grade iron castings I've seen in some time or they're actually a form of steel... Jerry

TheRomanhistorian · 12-30-2014, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conehammer

Alvin, clearly you are probably one of the most well informed persons regarding the Shansei Model 17 who I've read.

I have what I must believe is one of the post 1980 examples.
I'm curious regarding your statement that the post 1980 production pieces have a cast iron frame. How did you determine this? I'm no metallurgist and I'm not going to subject mine to exhaustive or destructive testing but the frame certainly does not appear to be a cast or grey iron part. I've machined fine grain cast iron and the surface never quite looks like steel. So either the material used is tyhe finest grade iron castings I've seen in some time or they're actually a form of steel... Jerry

Jerry,

Have you ever shot yours or is it safe queen for you? I'm curious after looking at the link Alvin posted.

Michael

TheRomanhistorian · 12-29-2014, 01:22 PM

Thanks, Alvin! That's good to know. I take it you got rid of the post-1980 Shansei then? I hadn't thought of the post-1980s ones as being like the Interarms Mausers but that makes a lot of sense in terms of a collectability thing. I think one of the ones I'm looking at is one of the new ones though I'm still pondering it since the 1920s ones seem, well, extremely pricey and hard to find at a good price (though I know the adage about patience!).

I have three other Broomhandles (one shot-out but all matching, a mismatched Bolo with relined 7.63 mm bore, and a matching but 9mm conversion) so I thought I'd round out my collection with a .45 if I can get one relatively cheaply. Mostly, it'd be a display piece.

I think I could live with the jamming as it is, in some sense, a novelty with 3-5 rounds through a year at most. If I buy one that is. Thank you again!

Michael

Sergio Natali · 12-29-2014, 03:17 PM

I've got a very small collection of C96 and among them there is an original SHANSEI.
As far as I know there are more than two kind of Chinese model 1896 copies.
One sort was practically hand made and at the time it was often dangerous to shoot; in the second group is possible to find quite a mix bag of varieties, some of them carry the legend Yaku Naval Dockyard on top of the chamber, where Taku is a city in the Hopiei province of China near the river Pei, and were manufactured by an armory located there.
The third sort made in 1929 was mainly used by the police and is chambered .45ACP

Quote
"...from he serial numbers noted there must have ben over 8,000 of these made and except for their size and a slight extension of he magazine to hold 10 .45 ACP cartidges, they are quite faithful reproductions of the original. A translation of the markings inicate that they were made in the Shansei Province Arsenal in 1929. since many thousands of Model 1921 Tomson submachine gun in .45 ACP were already in use in China, it is not surprising that Chinese choose to copy the popular model 1896 Mauser in that caliber," Unquote
(from System Mauser by Breathed ans Schroeder.)

Sergio

alvin · 01-03-2015, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

I've got a very small collection of C96 and among them there is an original SHANSEI.

When have time, could you post pictures of this original SHANSEI? Both sides. If have grip frame internal, that will be great. Thanks!

sheepherder · 01-03-2015, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

When have time, could you post pictures of this original SHANSEI? Both sides. If have grip frame internal, that will be great. Thanks!

I second Alvin's request!

A dedicated Shansei thread with numerous photos would be most appreciated!

alvin · 12-29-2014, 09:12 PM

There is one (new 1980 production, of course) listed on gunbroker.com for a while.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=460124664

If you can talk the price down to $1500.... this one has been listed for months.

From description, I feel the seller is a very honest guy, way too honest... "Not suitable for .45ACP" -- probably this sentence in description caused this gun hanging there for long time -- but actually, all of them could have this potential issue, this seller just unnecessarily emphasized it (probably some viewer asked him?? God knows) -- the new 1980 guns were not made for shooting. It's for collecting only. Sounds like a headspace issue, that's fixable by gunsmith.

TheRomanhistorian · 12-29-2014, 11:48 PM

Tempting, very tempting. I never forget what a boon of information is on this forum. Thank you, Sergio and Alvin.

alvin · 12-30-2014, 06:28 AM

Sorry, I just noticed the link posted was wrong. The gun should be this one:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=459387227

The last MSRP of this gun NIB was $850 when it's imported. Many years have passed, now it's probably $1400-$1500.

The seller could not figure out what's 11.43x26mm. The problem of this gun is definitely fixable.

sheepherder · 01-01-2015, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

The seller could not figure out what's 11.43x26mm. The problem of this gun is definitely fixable.

I can't figure it out either.

A .45 ACP case is ~23mm long, not 26...OAL [w/bullet] is ~32mm...Definitely not suitable for .45 ACP, if chamber is really 11.43 x 26...

Are there known examples of Shansei .45's being stamped 11.43 x 26???

saab-bob · 12-30-2014, 07:37 PM

Alvin
Regarding the 1980 made .45 C96.Where these guns sold thru Federal Ordnance? They where based in El Monte CA?
Bob

alvin · 12-31-2014, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saab-bob

Alvin
Regarding the 1980 made .45 C96.Where these guns sold thru Federal Ordnance? They where based in El Monte CA?
Bob

I heard it's Navy Arms?? The new instance was indeed made in Taiyuan, Shansei Province.

alvin · 12-31-2014, 02:34 AM

Since my gun was sold, I have to borrow a picture to show 1980 Shansei's frame internal. Please look at this -- this is not milled, this is cast.

conehammer · 01-01-2015, 05:48 AM

Comparing a shooter 1930 I have to the Shansei I'm still not certain it's an actual grey iron casting. Probably isn't Mauser grade steel either but that shouldn't surprise anyone.

Photos ( yes I'm doing this after New Years celebrations! ) of the inners of the Shansei - I removed the magazine latch trigger spring and of the 1930 commercial with the spring left in.

I've never fired mine. Never intended to. The bulk of my C96 collection suffers the same fate in my safe. I have only two examples that I shoot and at that rarely. Ones I built from parts, had relined and I rust re-blued. None of my core collection will I fire.

I've thought about firing the Shansei but never very seriously nor if I were to fire it probably no more than 5 shots. If it jammed or mis-fed I'd stop period. It isn't that important to me.

If Alvin's assertion is correct and the frame is cast iron I'll never fire it. won't risk breaking it.

Jerry

alvin · 01-01-2015, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conehammer

I've never fired mine. Never intended to. The bulk of my C96 collection suffers the same fate in my safe.

I fired a few collectibles, including a 6-shot. The feeling -- heartbeat rate and blood pressure increased -- like I am the target, the gun was aiming at me... especially the first shot. Luckily, nothing was broken. The gun operated flawlessly.

Damaged safety lever on a Red 9 and extractor on an Astra 900. Astra is OK because it's a mismatched gun. But that Red 9 was a little bit sorry. Safety lever is not numbered, but finding an original one in great shape is not easy. Good parts usually only found on good guns.

conehammer · 01-01-2015, 12:26 PM

The two pistols I compared. The 1930 commercial is my shooter that I've worked on, it's wearing Nil grips.

The Shansei is particularly annoying to reassemble as it is difficult to get the lock work to engage the upper for reassembly. I can literally reassemble a a C96 lock work and reassemble the pistol in the dark(!) but the Shansei tests my patience.

As to the caliber discussion I'll ask Alvin: since many have said here /elsewhere and proven(?) that the large pistol isn't chambered for 45 ACP does anyone here have or has seen original ammunition for these? Or is it like the 8.15mm Mauser that to my knowledge ammunition still has yet to be found ( I do have a copy of the DWM cartridge book that shows that case). I have two C96 examples in my collection that are supposed to be chambered for the 8.15x 25mm Mauser; one a very later 1930 and the other a mismatched very unusual Mauser Banner over chamber piece

Jerry

alvin · 01-01-2015, 03:42 PM

The original cartridge for this type gun should be regular 11.43x23mm. Why did new Shansei have a 11.43x26mm chamber being a myth. Probably it's upon importer's specification, creating a chamber that no production cartridge can be fired from it -- it's marketed as a collectible, but usually people's curiosity is suppressed by cost, not by words. If many buyers ignore the warning and fire their instances, and a few were injured, the importer will be in trouble... so importer made the chamber longer. To fire it, buyer must modify the gun. If the gun is modified and it hurt the operator in range, that's not importer's responsibility anymore

Just my guess on this weird chamber.

sheepherder · 01-01-2015, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Just my guess on this weird chamber.

Boy, you sure come up with some wild ones!

12-29-2014, 12:40 PM	#1
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	.45 ACP/Shanxi Type 17 Broomhandle So, everyone, I was viewing one of these on Gunbroker and know there's some controversy about them (though I can't imagine the Chinese, even of that period when costs were lower, manufacturing them from scratch, new, just to sell to us!). However, I kind of want one just to add to my Webley, Luger, and Broomhandle collection because it is such an oddball (I have two of the Webley and Scott Mk I .455 Self Loading pistols so why not add another weird gun?). Is there a good resource for information on them? I've been scouring the different boards and the internet but I find, unfortunately, far more questions than answers. I think it'd be fun to fire one a few times a year (like 3-5 shots a year at most) but mostly it's just for the oddball factor. I was just hoping to find more information as they seem to have gotten very spendy given their uncertain provenance (either original or made out of parts guns as I read somewhere, perhaps one of Alvin's erudite posts on Broomhandles!). Michael __________________ Michael Nos morituri te salutant - Supposed saying of the gladiators to the emperor ('We, who are about to die, salute you.') 'We are the lantern bearers, my friend; for us to keep something burning, to carry what light we can forward into the darkness and the wind' - From Rosemary Sutcliff's The Lantern Bearers

12-29-2014, 01:22 PM	#5
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	Thanks, Alvin! That's good to know. I take it you got rid of the post-1980 Shansei then? I hadn't thought of the post-1980s ones as being like the Interarms Mausers but that makes a lot of sense in terms of a collectability thing. I think one of the ones I'm looking at is one of the new ones though I'm still pondering it since the 1920s ones seem, well, extremely pricey and hard to find at a good price (though I know the adage about patience!). I have three other Broomhandles (one shot-out but all matching, a mismatched Bolo with relined 7.63 mm bore, and a matching but 9mm conversion) so I thought I'd round out my collection with a .45 if I can get one relatively cheaply. Mostly, it'd be a display piece. I think I could live with the jamming as it is, in some sense, a novelty with 3-5 rounds through a year at most. If I buy one that is. Thank you again! Michael __________________ Michael Nos morituri te salutant - Supposed saying of the gladiators to the emperor ('We, who are about to die, salute you.') 'We are the lantern bearers, my friend; for us to keep something burning, to carry what light we can forward into the darkness and the wind' - From Rosemary Sutcliff's The Lantern Bearers

12-29-2014, 03:17 PM	#6
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I've got a very small collection of C96 and among them there is an original SHANSEI. As far as I know there are more than two kind of Chinese model 1896 copies. One sort was practically hand made and at the time it was often dangerous to shoot; in the second group is possible to find quite a mix bag of varieties, some of them carry the legend Yaku Naval Dockyard on top of the chamber, where Taku is a city in the Hopiei province of China near the river Pei, and were manufactured by an armory located there. The third sort made in 1929 was mainly used by the police and is chambered .45ACP Quote "...from he serial numbers noted there must have ben over 8,000 of these made and except for their size and a slight extension of he magazine to hold 10 .45 ACP cartidges, they are quite faithful reproductions of the original. A translation of the markings inicate that they were made in the Shansei Province Arsenal in 1929. since many thousands of Model 1921 Tomson submachine gun in .45 ACP were already in use in China, it is not surprising that Chinese choose to copy the popular model 1896 Mauser in that caliber," Unquote (from System Mauser by Breathed ans Schroeder.) Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

12-29-2014, 11:48 PM	#10
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	Tempting, very tempting. I never forget what a boon of information is on this forum. Thank you, Sergio and Alvin. __________________ Michael Nos morituri te salutant - Supposed saying of the gladiators to the emperor ('We, who are about to die, salute you.') 'We are the lantern bearers, my friend; for us to keep something burning, to carry what light we can forward into the darkness and the wind' - From Rosemary Sutcliff's The Lantern Bearers

12-30-2014, 06:28 AM	#11
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Sorry, I just noticed the link posted was wrong. The gun should be this one: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=459387227 The last MSRP of this gun NIB was $850 when it's imported. Many years have passed, now it's probably $1400-$1500. The seller could not figure out what's 11.43x26mm. The problem of this gun is definitely fixable. Last edited by alvin; 12-30-2014 at 07:20 AM.

12-29-2014, 01:16 PM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	There are two types of Shansei Model 17 .45ACP Broomhandles on today's market: one type was made in late 1920s, another type was post 1980 reproduction. The post-1980 Shansei is more common on the market, I heard merely 300 of them were made. God knows, I have seen no fewer than 100 of them floating on the market over years. Post-1980 Shansei's situation is like Interarms Mauser Parabellum, they are not considered being pure shooters, they are collectibles too. After all, the volume is not huge. Looks to me, post-1980 Shansei's frame was cast iron, and those older Shansei made in 1920-1930 were milled from forged steel. I had a post-1980 Shansei in the past, it did not work smoothly, jammed frequently. That's the functional difference between new Shansei and new Interarms Mauser -- not only my instance had that issue, I heard other people experienced same problem. Obviously, new Shansei was made as a look-only gun. So, if you plan to shoot it occasionally, you will be disappointed. For occasional shooting, better find a Mauser or Astra 900, those in relatively good shape indeed works.

12-29-2014, 09:12 PM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	There is one (new 1980 production, of course) listed on gunbroker.com for a while. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=460124664 If you can talk the price down to $1500.... this one has been listed for months. From description, I feel the seller is a very honest guy, way too honest... "Not suitable for .45ACP" -- probably this sentence in description caused this gun hanging there for long time -- but actually, all of them could have this potential issue, this seller just unnecessarily emphasized it (probably some viewer asked him?? God knows) -- the new 1980 guns were not made for shooting. It's for collecting only. Sounds like a headspace issue, that's fixable by gunsmith.

12-30-2014, 07:37 PM	#13
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Alvin Regarding the 1980 made .45 C96.Where these guns sold thru Federal Ordnance? They where based in El Monte CA? Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

12-31-2014, 02:34 AM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Since my gun was sold, I have to borrow a picture to show 1980 Shansei's frame internal. Please look at this -- this is not milled, this is cast. Attached Thumbnails

01-01-2015, 05:48 AM	#16
conehammer User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 114 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 21 Posts	Comparing a shooter 1930 I have to the Shansei I'm still not certain it's an actual grey iron casting. Probably isn't Mauser grade steel either but that shouldn't surprise anyone. Photos ( yes I'm doing this after New Years celebrations! ) of the inners of the Shansei - I removed the magazine latch trigger spring and of the 1930 commercial with the spring left in. I've never fired mine. Never intended to. The bulk of my C96 collection suffers the same fate in my safe. I have only two examples that I shoot and at that rarely. Ones I built from parts, had relined and I rust re-blued. None of my core collection will I fire. I've thought about firing the Shansei but never very seriously nor if I were to fire it probably no more than 5 shots. If it jammed or mis-fed I'd stop period. It isn't that important to me. If Alvin's assertion is correct and the frame is cast iron I'll never fire it. won't risk breaking it. Jerry Attached Thumbnails

01-01-2015, 12:26 PM	#18
conehammer User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 114 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 21 Posts	The two pistols I compared. The 1930 commercial is my shooter that I've worked on, it's wearing Nil grips. The Shansei is particularly annoying to reassemble as it is difficult to get the lock work to engage the upper for reassembly. I can literally reassemble a a C96 lock work and reassemble the pistol in the dark(!) but the Shansei tests my patience. As to the caliber discussion I'll ask Alvin: since many have said here /elsewhere and proven(?) that the large pistol isn't chambered for 45 ACP does anyone here have or has seen original ammunition for these? Or is it like the 8.15mm Mauser that to my knowledge ammunition still has yet to be found ( I do have a copy of the DWM cartridge book that shows that case). I have two C96 examples in my collection that are supposed to be chambered for the 8.15x 25mm Mauser; one a very later 1930 and the other a mismatched very unusual Mauser Banner over chamber piece Jerry Attached Thumbnails Last edited by conehammer; 01-01-2015 at 04:01 PM.

01-01-2015, 03:42 PM	#19
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The original cartridge for this type gun should be regular 11.43x23mm. Why did new Shansei have a 11.43x26mm chamber being a myth. Probably it's upon importer's specification, creating a chamber that no production cartridge can be fired from it -- it's marketed as a collectible, but usually people's curiosity is suppressed by cost, not by words. If many buyers ignore the warning and fire their instances, and a few were injured, the importer will be in trouble... so importer made the chamber longer. To fire it, buyer must modify the gun. If the gun is modified and it hurt the operator in range, that's not importer's responsibility anymore Just my guess on this weird chamber.