Erfurt 1918

[danielsand]

Hello all.

Let me introduce myself before asking questions. I am a vet, 58 years 'young', and I grew up in Europe. Both of my parents were in the military, and my earliest "toy" that I can remember, was an Artilery Luger, my Mom's war trophy. She sold it when we were about to move back stateside (and after my father's untimely demise).

I collect military firearms, and I shoot them all (I guess I am not a "real collector"!).

Since I was "parabellumless" (my mother ALWAYS called it "Parabellum") for most of my life, I naturally craved to get one, but my "collecting" took me in the different direction.

This past X-mas, a family friend showed up with a present! 1918 Erfurt in MINT condition, with two mags (one matched, one mismatched), and the original holster, with loading tool.

And now the question: My new Parabellum has all matching numbers, and a suffix M after serial #69XX. The grips are also stamped with the last two #s of the serial. Holster has BAXI on the inside of the flap (I researched, and I know what it means, and I also speak German), but I was not able to find out any more info about the pistol. It also has the crown with "RC" under it, so I learned that it was "arsenal reworked" probably after WW1.

I would like if somebody can shed a little more light on this piece? I am NOT concerned about the value, because it will NEVER be offered for sale, as long as I am alive, but the month of manufacture, possible history (Shutzpolizei service after rework?), would be nice. Since it has "RC", I guess it is a rework, but the inside of the frame is "in the white", so I assume it was not reblued. It does have normal holster wear (side plate, muzzle, right side rail, etc.) but it's in remarkable condition considering the age. Finish is easy 95+%, but the strawing is fading.

It functions flawlessly, and it has the honorable place on my nightstand!

Any info would be grately appreciated.

[DavidJayUden]

Photos will help us determine it's use as a police gun, or not. Include and markings on the grip straps as well.
A very nice story and welcome aboard!
dju

[wlyon]

Will need photos to help you . The Crown RC is not a rework stamp. It was a mark applied at time of manufacture for a part that wasn't quite up to specs but still safe. Erfurt made heavy use of this mark. Do all the interior numbers match? Bill

[danielsand]

Thank you gentlemen.

No pics. I don't have a camera, and my Android pics would not do (I assume?). ALL internal parts have last two digits of the serial #. There are no stamps on the front or back strap. Loading tool has the waffenamt stamp as well.

So I was missinformed about the "RC"! It has RC stamp in two places. One on the right side of the "tunning fork", right above the first crown mark (from left to right). There are three proof marks with a crown, and the fourth one (closest to the barrel) is an eagle. The second "RC" is stamped on the right side of the bolt. On the left side of the bolt is the eagle stamp (both visible without disassembly).

One magazine has the wood bottom with matching numbers to the gun, but the right side "button" broke off, and it's missing.

Non matching mag has the aluminum bottom, three digit serial, under the serial is what looks like scripted letter "Y", under that is a "+" sign, and the last on the bottom is an eagle with number 63. Can you gents shed some light on that mag (WW2 perhaps)?

Grips are nice and tight, with crisp checkering, and pretty dark from use and oil. Barrel has some pitting, but strong rifling and shiny. Shoots to the POA, and I put 50 rounds of Federal 115gr FMJ through it. No malfunctions.

Thank you very much.

Edited to add:

P.S. I own 17 handguns, but I'm totally "ga-ga" over this piece!

Another edit!
I just discovered two more "RC" marks! One on the left side of the barrel, and one on the toggle! (my eyes are not what they used to be!)

[Edward Tinker]

welcome to the forum

If you mean can you upload your camera pictures to here, sure if you can figure it out should be able to send them to yourself to your computer and then crop or whatever and upload. Use plenty of light, most camera phones, unless old take decent pictures.

You can look in the new collector area for things to look for to have us help you

You can look in the FAQ and see pictures of a sear safety for police

Ed

[danielsand]

I thought that my phone camera would not show enough detail. Tomorrow, when the natural light is better, I'll snap a few, and upload them.
Thanks

[Tony Min]

Your phone would show more detail than we are seeing now.
Nice story and it sounds like a nice gun. Probably worth at least $1200
Nice Christmas present.
I have a lot of military pistols and rifles. But my Luger is among my favorites.

[ithacaartist]

+1 on the phone pics. I lost mine earlier this month, and its replacement has a 13 megapixel camera--almost three times the detail can be captured with this compared to my old Canon G5 (5.0 mpx)! Set your phone camera to the close-up setting, make sure the white balance is for the lighting used, and steady the shot by either holding it firmly against something firm, or prop the camera and use the timer to click the shutter to eliminate operator jiggle. Most shots are ruined by either camera motion or improper focus. Get in as close as you can, still in focus, and use the zoom if you need to get tighter. Natural light is good, but make sure it's diffuse--overcast, or in the shade. We await the results of this enterprise! ...And welcome to the forum.

[danielsand]

OK Gents! You asked, and I tried the best I can. My phone is obsolete DroidX, and I should've replaced it long ago. Since I am an old horse rancher (and a cowboy), I am not into the new gadgets, social media, and such. I participate on few forums (Rolex collectors, Jaguar, Range Rover), and I NEVER posted ANY pics on ANY forum, because it's just too much runaround with the equipment I have. But I tried, because I am REALLY interested in what you have to say about this piece.

Holster: No doubt original (as I own MANY vintage weapons and gear, I know what a 96 year old leather looks and feel like). No manufacturers markings, just a FAINT serial number (matching!) scribed in the back. It was scratched in the surface with a needle sharp object, and can not be seen with a naked eye. 10x loupe found it. On the inside of the flap, someone cleaned the portion of the leather to reveal B.A.XI (picture doesn't show it) stampped in ink. I know what that means.

Parabellum: No doubt original finish (what's left of it), and ALL (external and internal) parts match.

Mags: One with wood bottom missing a "button", matched serial. One with aluminum bottom, looks like WW2 markings. Both function flawlessly.

Value: I NEED to know after all! The pistol will never be sold, insurance is no problem either, but I HAVE TO reciprocate the gift in the appx same value (family friend that gave me this present is also a Rolex collector, so it won't be hard).

Please help with opinions.

[DavidJayUden]

First of all, take all the ammo. out of the wood based mag so that it does not fracture further. Close-ups just may help one of our craftsman determine if they can repair it.
A rough guestimate of the gun, holster and spare mag. would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $1500. Erfurts, especially those mfg. in the late war years, have a reputation of being slightly less finely finished, but completely functional.
Also, we have the world's best Luger holster repairmen on the forum, in case that holster needs freshening up. He can also help with any markings.
Very nice gun!
dju

[danielsand]

Thank you. That helps. Ammo is out of the woody, but the aluminum is OK to keep loaded (I do "cycle" the ammo!)? This Parabellum became my night stand pistol (I change them weekly, unload, and store in the safe).

This holster will just be in the safe, and never taken into the field, I think I want to keep it original. Somewhere in the past, the closing strap was repossitioned, but that was done long ago, as the strap itself shows that it was fielded after the repair. The strap is cracked (top layer) right where the buckle is when it's closed.

All I know about the pistol: Given to me by 74 year old lady, whose husband passed about ten years ago. He was WW2 pilot, and had this pistol "forever" (her words). She doesn't think that she has any papers with it. She still has MANY vintage guns in her safe, and she said that they will all be mine "eventually". She has four adult kids, but they are all scientists. professors, and such, and not "into guns" (her words). She doesn't want them to inherit the weapons, because they will only fight over them, and sell them.

Since I have my private shooting range (my ranch is 140 acres), she comes just about weekly, to shoot, and ride our horses.

VERY nice lady, and a dear family friend.

I wish I would have more info (like many of you say,...."if they could only talk"!) on this piece.

Can anybody tell me anything about the aluminum bottomed mag? I described the markings in my post above. The eagle that "holds" number 63 in it's "claws" definitely looks like a Nazi eagle, not like Imperial.

[DavidJayUden]

D:
More photos please, this time of the alloy base mag. Good close-ups of the base, and also any other markings on the body. One of the guys will be able to tell you specifically, or approximately, what years it was produced for.
dju

[danielsand]

The mag is blued (as you can see), and there are no markings on the body (checked with 10X loupe). This was challenging to do! LOL
Holding the mag in one hand, and the phone in the other, and clicking the shutter (on the screen) with my nose!

[danielsand]

Now that I learned how to do it, I became cocky! This is the "woody" mag. It's in nickel plating, and the right side "button" broke off. Looking at the color of the wood, seems like it broke off a while ago.

So,....can this be repaired somehow? I don't want to put the repro wood bottom on the mag. I will buy a whole mag (couple of them) from the recent production, to use, and leave these alone.

Thank you all for your help.

[alanint]

If this is matched to the gun, it is especially worth fixing. Member Gerry Tomick, ("G.T.) is the best out there to rehab Luger magazines.

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by alanint

If this is matched to the gun, it is especially worth fixing. Member Gerry Tomick, ("G.T.) is the best out there to rehab Luger magazines.

It is matched. Since it will never be sold (in MY lifetime), and it will not be used........I don't know. My whole collection will go to my grandson when I kick the bucket. My daughter is only 19, and I have some time (I hope). If no grandson comes along, all will go to my best friend (unless he drops dead first!). He has a son 8 years old now, and the kid is already into shooting and martial arts (like we are).

See,...as a shooter (as opposed to a collector), I am not too concerned about the value of the whole package. And since I am selfish old bastard, I want to shoot this piece with modern magazines, and not worry about the "future value". My kin will inherit PLENTY, and I want to enjoy what I have while I'm here.

[kubel]

"To shoot or not to shoot" is a highly debated topic on this forum. Regardless, if you do plan on shooting this pistol more than just to test it out, you may consider replacing some of the items first, particularly the firing pin. Although you plan on keeping the pistol, if you break a numbered part, the gun will never be all-matching again.

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by kubel

"To shoot or not to shoot" is a highly debated topic on this forum. Regardless, if you do plan on shooting this pistol more than just to test it out, you may consider replacing some of the items first, particularly the firing pin. Although you plan on keeping the pistol, if you break a numbered part, the gun will never be all-matching again.

Thank you. I am aware of all the cons against shooting it. Since the pistol is not rare by any means, if something breaks, I'll replace it, regardless of the loss of value. It will not be shot much. About 200 rounds a year. I have so many weapons, that none of them gets a lot through the pipe.

Thank you for the comment.

[CAP Black]

Perhaps the right time for a serious thought: we are but custodians of these items and part of our task is to preserve and save for posterity. Breaking and replacing doesn't really fit into that duty and responsibility.
We uphold your right to your decision; the rest is up to you.
Just my 2 cents.
Jack

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by CAP Black

Perhaps the right time for a serious thought: we are but custodians of these items and part of our task is to preserve and save for posterity. Breaking and replacing doesn't really fit into that duty and responsibility.
We uphold your right to your decision; the rest is up to you.
Just my 2 cents.
Jack

I know Jack. I've been collecting firearms since 1960s. the same dilemma was always present. And not only in the gun collecting community. For example,....the high end watch collecting is the same. MANY people pay upward of 100K for a rare, collectable watch, and stick it in the safe. never enjoying it. They are made to be worn. And I can see it in the case of NIB piece, but not if it was worn before.

Same with this Parabellum I was given. Original finish is WORN, straw is disappearing, it has few thousand (maybe more) rounds down the barrel, .....so what's the harm? Parts DO break, and they get replaced. I have two classic Jaguars (among others) in my garrage. With MANY new parts. The ONLY people that care about "matching" numbers, are serious collectors of VERY valuable and/or historical pieces (regardless of which product we are talking about). My Parabellum is none of the above. It survived who knows how many "owners" before me, and I'm sure it will outlive me. It was fired by the previous owner MANY times (his widow says), and it will be fired by me. With so many to choose from, it will not be fired much.

And the comment about being "the custodians" of these pieces, is exactly what I've been telling my family for decades. We can never "own" them, they "live" way longer than us. My guns are my tools, and I use them as such. They get the loving care in terms of cleaning, lubing, etc. and I never "ask" them to do something they are not made for. I also have a fully equipped machine shop on my ranch, and there is no part I can not make from scratch if needs to be.

There are MANY parts for P08 available. Some NOS, some from the other (less fortunate) guns. Parts can be "matched" by hand fitting, old (broken part) saved, and given to the next generation as such. I don't sell guns. (I only buy), so the "value" to me is what I can DO with the gun, and not how much I can get for it.

Since I spent 20+ years in the uniform, I am "anal retentive" (my wife's comment), and I don't stop with ANY research until I know EVERYTHING about it. So when I joined this forum, I was (and still am) reading EVERY post in this section (military P08). There are many posts on this same subject, and one caught my attention. The guy inherited grandfather's pistol, and was wondering to shoot or not. One poster told him (and I am paraphrazing here) "if shooting it, connects you with your grandfather, DO IT!" That's the best advice I've ever heard. Using this pistol as it was intended, connects me with all the history, and previous "custodians" that used it before me.

Just wanted to explain MY thinking on the subject, and I do respect the opinion of "the other side" of this eternal argument.

BTW, guys, I'm still hoping someone can tell me something about the alloy bottomed mag?

Thanks, and sorry for the long post. In my case,....short posts can easily be misunderstood, and I just wanted to explain MY thinking on the subject.