grip screw seized

[remerus]

Hello guys.

I recently acquired my first P08 that I plan to take down and clean off surface rust with 0000 steel wool. I noticed strait away when I received it that both the grip screws were fairly mangled and I have my doubts as to weather they will last if and when I manage to get them loose.

Two questions I suppose,

1 - Are the screws hard to come by? I have had a look on the foresale section and couldn't find any.

2- I would assume submersing that area of the gun in some sort of oil might help loosen up the screws but I don't know weather that will damage the possibility of resurrecting the grips, any advice would be great.

Cheers Peg

[alvin]

New screws are available on ebay. One possibility: applying a little bit kroil on both ends of one screw, waiting 72 hours, the edge of a 1c coin (soft, damaging the 1c coin in worst case) could be used a screwdriver on it. If this works on one side, apply the same procedure on the other side.

[Olle]

I second what Alvin said. Another thing that usually helps is to tap the screw after you apply the Kroil, this breaks the crud and makes the Kroil penetrate better. The easiest way to do that is to put a screwdriver bit in the slot and tap it with a hammer. Quick, firm taps with a small gunsmith hammer works well for this. Metal to metal contact works best, tapping the plastic handle on a screwdriver may not work at all.

You can bend the frame if you tap too hard, so you may want to use some kind of support in the mag well. A piece of scrap steel put in the vise will usually work as a makeshift "anvil" for this.

[Lugerdoc]

Remerus, Good suggestions above. I do stock both original PO8 grip screws in the $10 to $20 range or exc new repros @$5 each + S&H. Tom

[rhuff]

I have never used Kroil(not exactly sure why) but do have a number of good penetrating oils. I would apply it to the shank ends in the magwell, and under the screw head on both sides. Then wait for 24 hours. Apply gently heat, like a heat gun or hair dryer, to the grip screws(both ends) and reapply the penetrating oil and wait again. Tapping on the screws as stated above, may well help also. Just don't get in a hurry, because if you fracture the grip screw head off of the shaft, you have a larger problem to deal with....don't ask how I know this!!

[remerus]

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Remerus, Good suggestions above. I do stock both original PO8 grip screws in the $10 to $20 range or exc new repros @$5 each + S&H. Tom

Hi Tom, I'll take a pair of the originals if I could postage would be to Australia mate so you might want to check what that will cost if your willing to send them abroad.

[Ron Wood]

I have never tried this suggestion, but I have heard that after applying penetrating oil and tapping the screws the last measure that can be taken is to heat a cheap screwdriver that is slightly narrower than the screw slot to red hot and then heating the screw to give it that last bit of encouragement to break free. This applies a more directed heat source than a hair dryer or heat gun. You want to keep the screw driver narrower than the screw head so that you don't accidentally burn the wood grips. I have never had any screws seized to that extent so I don't know how well it works. Good luck.

[ithacaartist]

Ron, excellent suggestion on the conductive application. You can't get more precise in getting molecules to jiggle around than that! It may take several infusions of the heated screwdriver, and you might try tapping the red-hot screwdriver tip into the slot until it fits the slot perfectly, filling in most minor deformations. This will allow for even better heat transfer by allowing more surface area to come into contact to conduct it. I think anyone paying any attention at all will find it difficult to damage any of the surrounding material by this method.

A perhaps quicker method would involve a bit more equipment and something the average person might not have on hand, specifically, a pencil torch and heat-proof putty. The torch part is pretty obvious, but if you haven't worked with the putty, it might be worth a try. In this approach, pack the inside of the mag well with the putty to cover and protect the wood grips--the thicker, the better. Ideally, you'd leave only the tip of the screw, accessed from the vestibule of the mag well, exposed to the flame. The putty dries out in the process, but stays put to insulate nonetheless. The remnants are easily dug/poked out, and any excess or film wipes away with a damp rag, as it is water soluble. I'd make this the next-to-last-ditch effort.

The last ditch, really, is to take it to a machine shop with EDM machine. This process would use (E)lectrical (D)ischarge--an arc--to precisely blow away the core of the offending screw, leaving its threads still in the grooves; they can be picked out later. Since it runs in a tank of coolant, nothing surrounding the work is affected at all by any heat.

You will get those screws out one way or the other, and after you do, I'd recommend gently chasing the tappings in the grip frame before installing any of Tom's new screws, just to be sure there is no residue that would cause galling--you don't want to mess up new screws! It takes a rather exotic Whitworth tap. The tap for the grip screw's hole has been discussed on the forum, so do a search to find out its particulars and I think, also, a source. I bought and used one two years ago, and I can't remember offhand the size and pitch; but it worked great for a buggered hole in one of mine, threaded first thru the good, opposite hole, then chasing the mangled one from the inside out. This allowed the tap to start in some good threads to assure proper synchronization with them as the offending threads near the outside of the hole were encountered and cleaned out.

/blah

[FleetMan]

If you do not have ready access to Kroil, a good home remedy is a 50/50 mix of transmission fluid and acetone.

[remerus]

Thank you very much for the overwhelming response gents I will try first to get some penetrating oil and let her sit for a while. see how we go!

[sheepherder]

Another option is to clamp it securely to a drill or mill table; run the quill down (with a screwdriver bit in the chuck) into the screw, lock it, and then turn the quill manually...

I have done this occasionally, obviously the trick is to secure it so it doesn't move and doesn't mar the finish or scratch the wood...This works quite well on recessed screws...

[remerus]

Hello Gents,

I though I would just give you an update on the progress so far.

The screws are off thank god that was an ordeal ... first one( right hand) came off after a few goes with some WD40 over a couple of sessions with a couple of convincing taps with a hammer.

Second one (Left hand ) no such luck applied the same scenario as above but was so intent on staying put i ended up burring off the groove and put a slight bend in the frame just enough to stop insertion of the magazine. in the end I drilled through the center of the left hand screw and used an easy out to remove it.

The grips turn out to be matching as per the numbering which seem to be in not bad condition damage wise with exception of a small crack forming on the bottom of the left hand one.

The grips I assume had not been taken off for some time if not at all in the last 96 odd years aswith in the pictures I have provided you can see the pitting on the frame, is there any way to treat this to stop it from continuing?

Peg

[remerus]

..

[rhuff]

Glad to hear that you were able to get the grip screws out. they can be a real 'pain" as you have experienced. If that Luger were mine, I would totally dismantle it to a bare frame, and then treat the rust with a lightweight gun oil on 4-0 steel wool. It is going to take some time, but it will remove the rust, and leave any bluing that might still be present under the rust.

If you plan to refinish your Luger, then I would beadblast it with a very fine(less than 60 grit) abrasive. that will remove everything off of the steel.

[remerus]

Originally Posted by rhuff

Glad to hear that you were able to get the grip screws out. they can be a real 'pain" as you have experienced. If that Luger were mine, I would totally dismantle it to a bare frame, and then treat the rust with a lightweight gun oil on 4-0 steel wool. It is going to take some time, but it will remove the rust, and leave any bluing that might still be present under the rust.

If you plan to refinish your Luger, then I would beadblast it with a very fine(less than 60 grit) abrasive. that will remove everything off of the steel.

Ha ha yes I know what you mean I was more annoyed about pinching the frame around the mag well preventing the mag for being inserted.

I have already gone over the parts with 0000 sleel wool and oil but as have seem mentioned in this and other threads there is a need to do this "lightly" the only problem is I think ones interpretation of lightly varies from person to person and do not want to destroy the little finish I have left on her anyone have any insight to this as I'm sure the question comes up often?

Peg

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by rhuff

If you plan to refinish your Luger, then I would beadblast it with a very fine(less than 60 grit) abrasive. that will remove everything off of the steel.

I'd recommend doing this only if you don't mind seeing evidence that it has been done, afterward. The tiny peen marks left by the blasting will be evident under moderate magnification. The little dents will cover everything, even down into the stampings. One might consider a chemical removal of all rust and former finish, which would leave no marks.

I have two pistols that were, at the very least, bead blasted before they were refinished. In hand, with the naked eye, they look pretty good. Blasting evens out the appearance of the surfaces, smooths out small scratches and pits for the observer's eye...but if examined closely, a pistol so treated will show evidence of it.

I don't know of an easy way to get down into the recesses of the stampings to remove these marks, but the reachable surfaces should be able to be sanded, carefully, reasonably smooth. IIRC, 400 grit sandpaper would be acceptable for this. Don't forget to use a sanding block to help assure that the sanding is straight and flat--don't want to round off any corners, or create wavy-looking surfaces that are supposed to be dead flat.

[Ron Wood]

Olle,
That is a very clever idea. I'll bet there are a lot of smooth red rust relics that could benefit from that approach. That is so smart I wish I had come up with it.

[f15guy71]

Boil the parts- Interesting. I would have never guessed. Need to try it.

[mrerick]

Peg, have you solved the magazine well alignment problem? If not, it might be necessary to get the frame to someone with the correct mandrel to form it back into shape.

If you chase out the threads, be sure to use the right tap. These are English Whitworth threads. They have a different pitch angle (55 degrees) when compared with metric and SAE threads.




3/16" x 30 TPI Whitworth 55 degree threads

[sheepherder]

This thread seems like a good candidate for a 'sticky', so I thought I would throw in my $.02 worth...

A few weeks back, I decided to do some preventive maintenance on my 10 year old Nissan Xterra...I bought it new and had never changed the [platinum] spark plugs...They seemed to work just fine, but that is what PM is about...The # 1 plug wouldn't budge (aluminum heads!), so after checking the appropriate forum, I bought a spray can of PB Blaster...Ran the truck for a half hour to warm everything up, sprayed the plug holes, let it sit 4 hours...And started tightening/untightening the # 1 plug...It moved very slightly each way, then suddenly gave a 'screech' and unscrewed right out...After that one, I knew if it 'screeched', it was unscrewing...

I've used Kroil, Marvel Mystery Oil, BreakFree, 3in1 Oil, TapFree, many others...PB Blaster really impressed me...