BYF 42 2245k

richie301 · 08-08-2011, 06:25 PM

Gentlemen, I am new to this forum but not to shooting and have been a member of the NRA for 40 years. I am very interested in acquiring shooting examples of classic firearms. I have an opportunity to acquire a "shooting grade" P08 which has matching numbers with the exception of smooth walnut grips and a magazine which has had the numbers removed. The mag has an alum. bottom and is pinned on the rear side adjacent to thumb knob.
The bottom piece is stamped "Mexico" instead of Germany. It is a BYF 42 ser#2245k. Based on the almost 100% bluing and not original grips it must of been refinnished. On the forward grip frame below the trigger guard it has 1/P1.2.6. On the front frame under the barrel it looks as if the original SN was peened over and a new one matching the other parts added below it. Is this a real 1942 p08 or a good copy. I could provide photos if needed.
Thanks, Rich Wright

alanint · 08-08-2011, 06:51 PM

You must provide clear photos of the entire gun from every angle and close ups of all the markings in order to get the best informed opinions. Your gun is very unlikely to be a copy. It simply has its own history of alterations, which only the photos will reveal.

richie301 · 08-08-2011, 10:37 PM

Photos

Norme · 08-08-2011, 11:00 PM

Hi Rich, Your gun has been assembled from parts from different guns from different eras. It would take clearer photos than you have provided to properly identify these parts. While the top half is from a 42 byf (1942 Mauser) the frame is from a much earlier gun, possibly WW1. It should be marked P08 on the left frame, and it should have the distinctive Mauser bump. So, more photos please. Regards, Norm

richie301 · 08-09-2011, 05:53 AM

Where on left frame should the P08 be, near the take down latch or under the grip. Also, you mentioned the Mauser bump. Is that the bottom front of the frame.

alanint · 08-09-2011, 06:45 AM

The "PO8" should be on the left side flat of the frame just below the knurled finger grip of the toggle and the "Mauser Hump" would be at the very rear of each of the frame ears.

richie301 · 08-09-2011, 07:25 AM

I'll take more photos of the frame and post a little later.

richie301 · 08-09-2011, 10:48 AM

They are clear and can be magnified

Norme · 08-09-2011, 02:36 PM

Hi Rich, Thanks for those additional photos, unfortunately they don't quite show the area I'd like to examine. For your benefit, and for others that are confused about the Mauser "hump", here is a short primer.
The original P08's made by DWM and Erfurt in WW1 had frames that looked like the first photo, at the back. The P08's produced by Mauser and Krieghoff from 1934 on, were lengthened 1mm at the back, to prevent the rear toggle pin from drifting leftwards at full recoil and jamming the gun. This was necessary because of the hotter ammo in use at the time, see second photo. In 1937, Mauser, for reasons known only to themselves, started milling away the lower part of the frame rear, thus forming the "hump", third photo.
Back to your gun, Rich. I believe it has a DWM frame, renumbered to match the 1942 Mauser top half. Best regards, Norm

richie301 · 08-09-2011, 03:15 PM

Now I understand, here is the photo you wanted. What do the characters on the front grip strap indicate, 1/P1.2.6.

Doubs · 08-09-2011, 06:50 PM

Rich, while Norm didn't say why he thinks your frame is one made by DWM, I agree with him. If it had been made by Erfurt, there would be a proof mark stamped on the front of the trigger guard below the serial number. Erfurt stamped just about every part with proof marks including the grip screws. DWM was much more conservative.

richie301 · 08-09-2011, 08:25 PM

This information clears up a lot of doubts and also means the pistol is still fine shooter.
Rich

sheepherder · 08-09-2011, 08:36 PM

I am curious as to what others think of the chamfers on the sides of the toggle...Do they look 'enhanced'???

MikeP · 08-10-2011, 02:07 PM

A purely technical comment, but some could folks find legal issues with the frame being renumbered.
Just sayin'

John Sabato · 08-10-2011, 03:44 PM

Please show a clear photo of the marking on the bottom of the barrel. This is the import mark. Many imported guns were renumbered before importation by the seller (Perhaps east germany) in an attempt to get a better price by forced number matching... Show us the mark and we may be able to shed some light on the gun's import date.

richie301 · 08-10-2011, 05:23 PM

See if this will do.

mrerick · 08-10-2011, 08:15 PM

So, the importer is Century Arms, Inc... Perhaps from the batch a few years ago?

Is it a VoPo RC with the s/n renumbering done there?

The magazine looks late, not period. Was there someone in Mexico making them a few years ago?

If this shoots well (and you should verify this before acquisition) it should satisfy your need for a shooter Luger.

Marc

richie301 · 08-10-2011, 10:42 PM

Thanks mark, I did a dogpile search on "VoPo Rc"
and there is a ton of info on the whole Russian capture/ East German maintained supply of Lugers,
P-38's and K-98's that came to the USA during the 90's. Also, info on their altered serial number matching plan to enhance sale prices. As you pointed out, some of articles say they shoot very well because they were maintained by the East German armorers.

Rich

08-08-2011, 06:25 PM	#1
richie301 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	BYF 42 2245k Gentlemen, I am new to this forum but not to shooting and have been a member of the NRA for 40 years. I am very interested in acquiring shooting examples of classic firearms. I have an opportunity to acquire a "shooting grade" P08 which has matching numbers with the exception of smooth walnut grips and a magazine which has had the numbers removed. The mag has an alum. bottom and is pinned on the rear side adjacent to thumb knob. The bottom piece is stamped "Mexico" instead of Germany. It is a BYF 42 ser#2245k. Based on the almost 100% bluing and not original grips it must of been refinnished. On the forward grip frame below the trigger guard it has 1/P1.2.6. On the front frame under the barrel it looks as if the original SN was peened over and a new one matching the other parts added below it. Is this a real 1942 p08 or a good copy. I could provide photos if needed. Thanks, Rich Wright

08-08-2011, 10:37 PM	#3
richie301 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Photos of BYF 42 2245k Photos Attached Thumbnails

08-09-2011, 05:53 AM	#5
richie301 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Where on left frame should the P08 be, near the take down latch or under the grip. Also, you mentioned the Mauser bump. Is that the bottom front of the frame.

08-09-2011, 07:25 AM	#7
richie301 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks I'll take more photos of the frame and post a little later.

08-09-2011, 10:48 AM	#8
richie301 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	8.9.11 photos They are clear and can be magnified Attached Thumbnails

08-08-2011, 06:51 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	You must provide clear photos of the entire gun from every angle and close ups of all the markings in order to get the best informed opinions. Your gun is very unlikely to be a copy. It simply has its own history of alterations, which only the photos will reveal.

08-08-2011, 11:00 PM	#4
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Rich, Your gun has been assembled from parts from different guns from different eras. It would take clearer photos than you have provided to properly identify these parts. While the top half is from a 42 byf (1942 Mauser) the frame is from a much earlier gun, possibly WW1. It should be marked P08 on the left frame, and it should have the distinctive Mauser bump. So, more photos please. Regards, Norm

08-09-2011, 06:45 AM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	The "PO8" should be on the left side flat of the frame just below the knurled finger grip of the toggle and the "Mauser Hump" would be at the very rear of each of the frame ears.

08-09-2011, 02:36 PM	#9
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Rich, Thanks for those additional photos, unfortunately they don't quite show the area I'd like to examine. For your benefit, and for others that are confused about the Mauser "hump", here is a short primer. The original P08's made by DWM and Erfurt in WW1 had frames that looked like the first photo, at the back. The P08's produced by Mauser and Krieghoff from 1934 on, were lengthened 1mm at the back, to prevent the rear toggle pin from drifting leftwards at full recoil and jamming the gun. This was necessary because of the hotter ammo in use at the time, see second photo. In 1937, Mauser, for reasons known only to themselves, started milling away the lower part of the frame rear, thus forming the "hump", third photo. Back to your gun, Rich. I believe it has a DWM frame, renumbered to match the 1942 Mauser top half. Best regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

08-09-2011, 03:15 PM	#10
richie301 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, no hump Now I understand, here is the photo you wanted. What do the characters on the front grip strap indicate, 1/P1.2.6. Attached Thumbnails

08-09-2011, 06:50 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	Rich, while Norm didn't say why he thinks your frame is one made by DWM, I agree with him. If it had been made by Erfurt, there would be a proof mark stamped on the front of the trigger guard below the serial number. Erfurt stamped just about every part with proof marks including the grip screws. DWM was much more conservative.

08-09-2011, 08:25 PM	#12
richie301 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Many thanks to Norme and Doubs This information clears up a lot of doubts and also means the pistol is still fine shooter. Rich

08-09-2011, 08:36 PM	#13
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	I am curious as to what others think of the chamfers on the sides of the toggle...Do they look 'enhanced'??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

08-10-2011, 02:07 PM	#14
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	A purely technical comment, but some could folks find legal issues with the frame being renumbered. Just sayin'

08-10-2011, 03:44 PM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Please show a clear photo of the marking on the bottom of the barrel. This is the import mark. Many imported guns were renumbered before importation by the seller (Perhaps east germany) in an attempt to get a better price by forced number matching... Show us the mark and we may be able to shed some light on the gun's import date. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-10-2011, 05:23 PM	#16
richie301 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Barrel photo See if this will do. Attached Thumbnails

08-10-2011, 08:15 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	So, the importer is Century Arms, Inc... Perhaps from the batch a few years ago? Is it a VoPo RC with the s/n renumbering done there? The magazine looks late, not period. Was there someone in Mexico making them a few years ago? If this shoots well (and you should verify this before acquisition) it should satisfy your need for a shooter Luger. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-10-2011, 10:42 PM	#18
richie301 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Possible VoPo Rc Thanks mark, I did a dogpile search on "VoPo Rc" and there is a ton of info on the whole Russian capture/ East German maintained supply of Lugers, P-38's and K-98's that came to the USA during the 90's. Also, info on their altered serial number matching plan to enhance sale prices. As you pointed out, some of articles say they shoot very well because they were maintained by the East German armorers. Rich