Teaser....DWM blue!

nukem556 · 07-01-2011, 11:21 PM

Gallons of distilled water, nearly 30 different rust blue solutions and hours of slaving in a hot kitchen, I'm very close to what I consider a close match for the original DWM color. I began this Quixotian quest as a result of necessity, as there are restorers who will not share their formula, even though they have more work than they can get to. If the results meet my initial trials, I will gladly share the results with my fellow forum members.
The formula is very close to one documented here by an old member, "chuckc" (search old posts), with a couple of significant modifications. Sadly, he has stopped contributing or gone to his reward...a shame, as I'd loved to bounced ideas back and forth with him.
I'll be throwing my chips in the pot by using this mixture on an early 1900 Parabellum I bought in rough condition...hope to be able to share the results with you guys in about 3 weeks. Bob

Ice · 07-02-2011, 07:40 AM

Great news, Bob. Looking forward to seeing the results of your test.

Charlie

Kitkat041836 · 07-02-2011, 10:15 AM

Hi Bob
I know a guy that I think is the best there is at rust blue and I
think he will be glad to help you. His name is Charles Danner.
He has done 3 or 4 guns for me and they all came out great.
Call me and I will tell you how to reach him.My phone number
is 1-(510)-523-6682
Thanks George Fortier

calibrator · 07-02-2011, 01:11 PM

"chuckc" lives about 5 miles from me. I have been to his house on 2 occassions to compare our Luger collections. He was willing to share his formula with me and I will take the offer. He has a summer house in Colorado. I've lost his contact info when my computer crashed in January, so I'll have to knock on his door this fall. He's a nice guy, and really appreciates the help he got from forum members when he needed it. The last I saw him was about a 9 months ago.

Olle · 07-03-2011, 07:33 AM

Bob,

Exciting news, indeed! Looking forward to see the results!

Hugh · 07-03-2011, 02:33 PM

The original DWM rust blue was obtained by hanging the parts in the mens urinal for several days. Was this one of the "solutions" that you tried?

hgreer2 · 07-03-2011, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calibrator

"chuckc" lives about 5 miles from me. I have been to his house on 2 occassions to compare our Luger collections. He was willing to share his formula with me and I will take the offer. He has a summer house in Colorado. I've lost his contact info when my computer crashed in January, so I'll have to knock on his door this fall. He's a nice guy, and really appreciates the help he got from forum members when he needed it. The last I saw him was about a 9 months ago.

I've got one at his shop as we speak, I will post before and after pictures when I get it back.

Harry

nukem556 · 07-03-2011, 05:10 PM

Hugh...I've heard that snippet of info before....can you trace the source for it?

Vlim · 07-04-2011, 01:09 PM

Using urine in production was actually quite common for many centuries. It was used as a bleaching agent in the linnen industry. The local population of the industrial towns would collect their pee in jars, this also earned them the nick name of 'kruikenzeikers' or 'jar pissers' in towns like Tilburg, the Netherlands.

If urine was used in the production / blueing process, I'm pretty confident that the town of Berlin would produce it in sufficient quantities, especially when being paid for

Norme · 07-04-2011, 01:31 PM

Urine was used in the manufacture of gunpowder during the Napoleonic Wars. It is rich in nitrogen and the French extracted saltpeter from it. Regards, Norm

JD · 07-06-2011, 03:55 PM

So if you're going to use urine as a blueing agent, what kind of beer do you have to drink to get the right color? :-)

Vlim · 07-06-2011, 04:05 PM

Just don't eat asparagus before you donate. The gun will smell terrible

nukem556 · 08-03-2011, 08:36 PM

here's a comparison between 2 rust blues...on the left is Brownell's Classic rust blue...on the right is my concoction based on chuckc's formula with modifications....I realize everyones monitor and my camera might not be reading in absolutely "true" color, but a relative comparison between the two can be seen. Is it my imagination, or is the one on the right "bluer" and closer to the old DWM color?

calibrator · 08-03-2011, 09:27 PM

Can't tell the color/hue difference from pics, however I can see a difference in what a Hollywood DP (Director of Photography) would call the "Spectral Highlights" between the two. Notice how the white glare of light is soft on the left, and crisp and hard on the right. The reason for that is ... ??? Please re-take your photos in direct sunlight with the sun to your back, I don't think you are using the correct color balance setting for you camera with these.

nukem556 · 08-03-2011, 10:10 PM

yeah, i gotta experiment, no photographer ... i'll take some outside tomorrow

nukem556 · 08-04-2011, 05:55 PM

ok...a little cloudy out today, but here's two outside

mrerick · 08-04-2011, 06:25 PM

Bob, the indirect lighting conditions of a cloudy day are exactly what you want for these photos.

The one on the right does look more deeply blue/black to me.

I'd like to understand the steps involved in the rust bluing process. Where could I find a good reference?

Marc

Ice · 08-04-2011, 06:50 PM

I would like to know also. Good job and thanks!

Charlie

nukem556 · 08-05-2011, 08:39 PM

Marc...theres tons of info to be Googled on rust bluing, and even some good stuff on here if you search the archives. The bare basics are that you start out with TOTALLY degreased parts, every screw hole, slot, crevace must be totally clean. Henceforth, never touch the degreased metal with bare fingers. The bluing solution of your choice is applied in a very thin coat with cotton balls or surgical gauze. The part is allowed to rust in a warm, humid place for a few hours...this varies on your location, but the first coat rusts the quickest, so never let it go over 3 hrs. Ive seen pics where folks will rust until theres an even orange coat on the parts....im my experience, if you go that long, you're going to get a very matte finish at the end. Better to do more and shorter rust cycles . After each rusting cycle, the parts are boiled in a stainless container with ONLY distilled water. Bring water to a boil, drop in the parts and boil for 10min. When you remove the parts, they will have a sooty, black appearance....this "soot" is buffed off, "carded", with a very fine wire brush or oooo degreased steel wool. The cycles are repeated 5, 6, 7...times until desire finish is acheived.
That's the short course...as I said, there are more detailed instructions on the net.

Now, the solution I arrived at is similar to chuckc's formula which is available here in the archives...it consists of nitric acid, copper sulfate, ferric chloride, distilled water and isopropyl alcohol. See his post for the proportions of each. I used his as is to begin, but it still had more of a gray/black tint than I wanted. After much digging on the net, I found several mentions from seperate people who had heard that old-school gunsmiths would add sodium nitrate to the solution to acheive a "bluer" color. HMMMMM...I mixed up a batch, and voila, it was noticeably bluer! The only other modification to chucks formula was I reduced the amount of ferric chloride by 1/3, as it is an aggresive etching agent and I think it contributes to making the finish too matte. if you use chuckc's measurements, the amount of sodium nitrate to add is 1 gram.

So...proof is in the pudding, but as you can tell from my above posts, I'm no professional photgrapher...I'm gonna include one pic of my finished project, but its not very good and the color doesnt look exactly like it does to the naked eye....I'm pretty pleased with the result on this 111 year old girl, I'm gonna try to use a tripod and a bigger light box soon and send some good ones!

P.S. oh, by the way...those ARE the original numbered grips..Hugh Clark is a genius!

Ice · 08-06-2011, 07:13 AM

Bob, as somebody once observed, there are no real "trade secrets" in gunsmithing. The key is that someone has an eye for nice work and knows what the end result should look like. That coupled with patience and a lot of hard work will yield results that approach or equal the best. It helps greatly of course to know people who are master welders and those who can furnish or make hard to find parts. The specific hand finishing techniques to achieve the result is available if one looks. Your pistol looks really fine and Hugh's grip work is choice.; looking forward to additional photos.

Thanks for sharing.

Charlie

07-01-2011, 11:21 PM	#1
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Teaser....DWM blue! Gallons of distilled water, nearly 30 different rust blue solutions and hours of slaving in a hot kitchen, I'm very close to what I consider a close match for the original DWM color. I began this Quixotian quest as a result of necessity, as there are restorers who will not share their formula, even though they have more work than they can get to. If the results meet my initial trials, I will gladly share the results with my fellow forum members. The formula is very close to one documented here by an old member, "chuckc" (search old posts), with a couple of significant modifications. Sadly, he has stopped contributing or gone to his reward...a shame, as I'd loved to bounced ideas back and forth with him. I'll be throwing my chips in the pot by using this mixture on an early 1900 Parabellum I bought in rough condition...hope to be able to share the results with you guys in about 3 weeks. Bob Last edited by nukem556; 07-02-2011 at 11:54 AM.

07-03-2011, 02:33 PM	#6
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	The original DWM rust blue was obtained by hanging the parts in the mens urinal for several days. Was this one of the "solutions" that you tried? __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

08-03-2011, 08:36 PM	#13
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Ok...preview here's a comparison between 2 rust blues...on the left is Brownell's Classic rust blue...on the right is my concoction based on chuckc's formula with modifications....I realize everyones monitor and my camera might not be reading in absolutely "true" color, but a relative comparison between the two can be seen. Is it my imagination, or is the one on the right "bluer" and closer to the old DWM color? Attached Thumbnails

08-04-2011, 05:55 PM	#16
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	ok...a little cloudy out today, but here's two outside Attached Thumbnails

08-04-2011, 06:25 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Bob, the indirect lighting conditions of a cloudy day are exactly what you want for these photos. The one on the right does look more deeply blue/black to me. I'd like to understand the steps involved in the rust bluing process. Where could I find a good reference? Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

07-02-2011, 07:40 AM	#2
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Great news, Bob. Looking forward to seeing the results of your test. Charlie

07-02-2011, 10:15 AM	#3
Kitkat041836 RIP Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 195 Thanks: 0 Thanked 21 Times in 18 Posts	Hi Bob I know a guy that I think is the best there is at rust blue and I think he will be glad to help you. His name is Charles Danner. He has done 3 or 4 guns for me and they all came out great. Call me and I will tell you how to reach him.My phone number is 1-(510)-523-6682 Thanks George Fortier

07-02-2011, 01:11 PM	#4
calibrator User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Cave Creek Posts: 315 Thanks: 55 Thanked 244 Times in 93 Posts	"chuckc" lives about 5 miles from me. I have been to his house on 2 occassions to compare our Luger collections. He was willing to share his formula with me and I will take the offer. He has a summer house in Colorado. I've lost his contact info when my computer crashed in January, so I'll have to knock on his door this fall. He's a nice guy, and really appreciates the help he got from forum members when he needed it. The last I saw him was about a 9 months ago.

07-03-2011, 07:33 AM	#5
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 664 Times in 318 Posts	Bob, Exciting news, indeed! Looking forward to see the results!

07-03-2011, 05:10 PM	#8
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Hugh...I've heard that snippet of info before....can you trace the source for it?

07-04-2011, 01:09 PM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Using urine in production was actually quite common for many centuries. It was used as a bleaching agent in the linnen industry. The local population of the industrial towns would collect their pee in jars, this also earned them the nick name of 'kruikenzeikers' or 'jar pissers' in towns like Tilburg, the Netherlands. If urine was used in the production / blueing process, I'm pretty confident that the town of Berlin would produce it in sufficient quantities, especially when being paid for

07-04-2011, 01:31 PM	#10
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Urine was used in the manufacture of gunpowder during the Napoleonic Wars. It is rich in nitrogen and the French extracted saltpeter from it. Regards, Norm

07-06-2011, 03:55 PM	#11
JD User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Western Washington Posts: 107 Thanks: 58 Thanked 22 Times in 17 Posts	So if you're going to use urine as a blueing agent, what kind of beer do you have to drink to get the right color? :-)

07-06-2011, 04:05 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Just don't eat asparagus before you donate. The gun will smell terrible

08-03-2011, 09:27 PM	#14
calibrator User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Cave Creek Posts: 315 Thanks: 55 Thanked 244 Times in 93 Posts	Can't tell the color/hue difference from pics, however I can see a difference in what a Hollywood DP (Director of Photography) would call the "Spectral Highlights" between the two. Notice how the white glare of light is soft on the left, and crisp and hard on the right. The reason for that is ... ??? Please re-take your photos in direct sunlight with the sun to your back, I don't think you are using the correct color balance setting for you camera with these.

08-03-2011, 10:10 PM	#15
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	yeah, i gotta experiment, no photographer ... i'll take some outside tomorrow

08-04-2011, 06:50 PM	#18
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	I would like to know also. Good job and thanks! Charlie

08-05-2011, 08:39 PM	#19
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Marc...theres tons of info to be Googled on rust bluing, and even some good stuff on here if you search the archives. The bare basics are that you start out with TOTALLY degreased parts, every screw hole, slot, crevace must be totally clean. Henceforth, never touch the degreased metal with bare fingers. The bluing solution of your choice is applied in a very thin coat with cotton balls or surgical gauze. The part is allowed to rust in a warm, humid place for a few hours...this varies on your location, but the first coat rusts the quickest, so never let it go over 3 hrs. Ive seen pics where folks will rust until theres an even orange coat on the parts....im my experience, if you go that long, you're going to get a very matte finish at the end. Better to do more and shorter rust cycles . After each rusting cycle, the parts are boiled in a stainless container with ONLY distilled water. Bring water to a boil, drop in the parts and boil for 10min. When you remove the parts, they will have a sooty, black appearance....this "soot" is buffed off, "carded", with a very fine wire brush or oooo degreased steel wool. The cycles are repeated 5, 6, 7...times until desire finish is acheived. That's the short course...as I said, there are more detailed instructions on the net. Now, the solution I arrived at is similar to chuckc's formula which is available here in the archives...it consists of nitric acid, copper sulfate, ferric chloride, distilled water and isopropyl alcohol. See his post for the proportions of each. I used his as is to begin, but it still had more of a gray/black tint than I wanted. After much digging on the net, I found several mentions from seperate people who had heard that old-school gunsmiths would add sodium nitrate to the solution to acheive a "bluer" color. HMMMMM...I mixed up a batch, and voila, it was noticeably bluer! The only other modification to chucks formula was I reduced the amount of ferric chloride by 1/3, as it is an aggresive etching agent and I think it contributes to making the finish too matte. if you use chuckc's measurements, the amount of sodium nitrate to add is 1 gram. So...proof is in the pudding, but as you can tell from my above posts, I'm no professional photgrapher...I'm gonna include one pic of my finished project, but its not very good and the color doesnt look exactly like it does to the naked eye....I'm pretty pleased with the result on this 111 year old girl, I'm gonna try to use a tripod and a bigger light box soon and send some good ones! P.S. oh, by the way...those ARE the original numbered grips..Hugh Clark is a genius! Attached Thumbnails

08-06-2011, 07:13 AM	#20
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Bob, as somebody once observed, there are no real "trade secrets" in gunsmithing. The key is that someone has an eye for nice work and knows what the end result should look like. That coupled with patience and a lot of hard work will yield results that approach or equal the best. It helps greatly of course to know people who are master welders and those who can furnish or make hard to find parts. The specific hand finishing techniques to achieve the result is available if one looks. Your pistol looks really fine and Hugh's grip work is choice.; looking forward to additional photos. Thanks for sharing. Charlie