The Latest Lugers

Michael Zeleny · 03-12-2010, 11:37 AM

Hermann Historica's next auction features a Norinco Luger SN 1001 and a second coming of the Nedbal .45 ACP Luger SN 1.

Dan44 · 03-12-2010, 12:25 PM

Years ago I met David Keng at a Fl gunshow. He told me that the "Legend line" of arms from Poly Tech would include Chinese copies of many historic arms. I did not think it would have Lugers.

Vlim · 03-12-2010, 02:12 PM

This Norinco prototype was recently discussed here. I found a reference to the same gun in a 1990s copy of Deutsches Waffenjournal.

The '1001' marking seems to suggest that this 'Norinco Prototype' is a reworked 'new' VoPo, but the detail photos on HH seem to show that it indeed is a (poorly made) copy of the P08.

Michael Zeleny · 03-12-2010, 03:05 PM

The finish of the Norinco pistol is atrocious, but I wonder about its fit. It is barely conceivable that they got the engineering right. By contrast, the Nedbal Luger looks very good, but is said to suffer from chronic operational failures. Maybe these two parties can get together to produce a flawless 9mm Parabellum replica.

Sieger · 03-13-2010, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

This Norinco prototype was recently discussed here. I found a reference to the same gun in a 1990s copy of Deutsches Waffenjournal.

The '1001' marking seems to suggest that this 'Norinco Prototype' is a reworked 'new' VoPo, but the detail photos on HH seem to show that it indeed is a (poorly made) copy of the P08.

Vlim:

I remember reading about the Chinese Luger in the same publication, again, in the early 1990s. The Journal, I believe, even tested one.

Sieger

Michael Zeleny · 03-13-2010, 02:08 PM

I don't see the attraction of the .45 Luger. History suggests that the ballistic legacy of John Moses Browning so well mated with automatic Colt pistols, is ill accommodated by the handgun designs of Hugo Borchardt and Georg Luger. If Norinco could get its act together to produce a historically correct and properly functioning 9mm Parabellum pistol fitted and finished to the pre-WWI DWM standard, they would have a best-seller at around $1195.00.

Sieger · 03-13-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

I don't see the attraction of the .45 Luger. History suggests that the ballistic legacy of John Moses Browning so well mated with automatic Colt pistols, is ill accommodated by the handgun designs of Hugo Borchardt and Georg Luger. If Norinco could get its act together to produce a historically correct and properly functioning 9mm Parabellum pistol fitted and finished to the pre-WWI DWM standard, they would have a best-seller at around $1195.00.

Mike:

A properly set-up Luger in .45 works just fine (one of John Martz' creations for instance).

Aimco was thinking of marketing a .40 Luger, just before it went bottoms-up. This might have been a better alternative for those wanting more horse power than a 9MM Parabellum.

Could the Chinese manufacture an outstanding quality Luger recreation? Yes, of that I have no doubt, but at the price you are quoting above, it is doubtful.

Sieger

suum cuique · 03-13-2010, 03:43 PM

Maybe I would buy a Chinese Luger if the quality is better than in the early 1990"s and the price is right. (Just for the fun to have it). The Chinese Luger shown on the pictures has a poor finnish/quality from the standpoint of a buyer who expects an esthetic looking gun.
I bought a Norinco SKS back in the late 80's and this is a very reliable rifle.

alvin · 03-21-2010, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

If Norinco could get its act together to produce a historically correct and properly functioning 9mm Parabellum pistol fitted and finished to the pre-WWI DWM standard, they would have a best-seller at around $1195.00.

The price of postwar Luger has a cap -- the price of prewar Luger. And the market is very small. If there were a chance, Mitchell, AIMCO etc had not discontinued their stainless version. It's a dead-end.

====

[Edit] With so many German Lugers, the market does not need another high quality high price reproduction. What missing was a low quality low price one, for example, a $200 new Luger, with this finish. It will compete with those "shooters" or parts gun that people spending $500-$700 on and had hard time to get them work (why guns do not work are called shooters?

) That's the target market.

Vlim · 03-12-2010, 03:15 PM

Some closeups of the Norinco:

Dan44 · 03-12-2010, 03:20 PM

From what I've seen in the 90's with the quality of the 1911a1 they sold (low price too) they would of sold a ton of them. They also copied the Walther PPK in some numbers.

03-12-2010, 08:17 PM

I must be pretty sure that the entry price of 2,800 euros for the Luger .45 cal. gun will shoot tru the roof once bidding starts, I must assume this since a Martz 45 Luger cost around
$8 to $9,000, a M. Krause one in the vecinity of $24,000(I am told) all this of course if you can find them!!!

I wish and hope that someone made a 45 Luger in an affordable price, but after looking at the new reproductions semiautomatic MP 40,MP-44 and FG-42 line of rifles and their price tag, I have come to the conclusion that the "affordable" 45 Luger is just an impossibility.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-12-2010, 09:25 PM

Vlim, Thanks for the photo's of the Norinco Luger. It looks to be somewhat disapointing. Poorly made to be sure.
I owned a Norinco .45 once and parts fell off of it every time I shot it. Yes..it was cheap. I think I paid 300 for it new. Irritating to have a pistol fall apart at every concievable opportunity though.
The Chinese make some great tools and are capable of really good engineering and construction. Will they do it on the P08? It dosen't look like it so far.

They would be way ahead if they forgot the 9MM and made a GOOD .45 Luger for $1500-2000. They would sell a ton of those if they were made decently and WORKED.

Jerry Burney

Jerry Burney

Ice · 03-13-2010, 10:23 AM

Maybe Norinco will update their quality control as time passes. A properly made .45 Luger would be a huge winner for all if they would make it.

Charlie

John Sabato · 03-17-2010, 12:31 PM

The photo of the Chinese Luger looks like the gun was made by convicts with files!

Ron Wood · 03-17-2010, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

The photo of the Chinese Luger looks like the gun was made by convicts with files!

It probably was.

alamar · 03-20-2010, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

It probably was.

Beat me to the punch! You forgot to mention: ...and children."

Norinco quality has gotten much better as time goes by. What they produce today is way above even anything they made only a few years ago.

Although I always prefer the original, for those looking for vintage piece and can't afford it or find it, then Norinco is not a bad way to go. Don't expect their value to increase!

I know people that have the 1887 and 1897 model shotguns and they are a lot of fun for under approx $400. Whereas the originals would go for many times that.

I have 4-5 of their M14 rifle copies and they shoot fantastic ($400). The 1911 is also a nice piece.

Many of them need some tweaking to get them running well, but for the money again you cant really complain.

unspellable · 03-20-2010, 07:53 AM

So long as we are daydreaming, I kind of like nthe idea of a slightly larger Luger chambered in 357 SIG. Sort of a scaled up 7.65 Luger.

lugercollector · 03-21-2010, 08:09 AM

I believe those are blank firing replica Lugers.....not the real thing!!

Here is the google translation of the text...
Cal 9 mm Para, Nr 1,001th Nummerngleich. Blanker run. Right at the fork piece called "P. Mod 08". On the upper joint Norinco trademark. Full original burnishing. Dark wood grips. Falzmagazin with Aluboden without number. Interesting and rare counterpart to the regular P. 08 for the Parabellumsammler. Recorded, almost new condition.
Erwerbsscheinpflichtig.

Freischütz · 03-21-2010, 07:51 PM

So the NP20 is a HKP7 knockoff?

03-12-2010, 11:37 AM	#1
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	The Latest Lugers Hermann Historica's next auction features a Norinco Luger SN 1001 and a second coming of the Nedbal .45 ACP Luger SN 1. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

03-12-2010, 02:12 PM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	This Norinco prototype was recently discussed here. I found a reference to the same gun in a 1990s copy of Deutsches Waffenjournal. The '1001' marking seems to suggest that this 'Norinco Prototype' is a reworked 'new' VoPo, but the detail photos on HH seem to show that it indeed is a (poorly made) copy of the P08. Attached Thumbnails

03-12-2010, 03:05 PM	#4
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	The finish of the Norinco pistol is atrocious, but I wonder about its fit. It is barely conceivable that they got the engineering right. By contrast, the Nedbal Luger looks very good, but is said to suffer from chronic operational failures. Maybe these two parties can get together to produce a flawless 9mm Parabellum replica. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

03-13-2010, 02:08 PM	#6
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	I don't see the attraction of the .45 Luger. History suggests that the ballistic legacy of John Moses Browning so well mated with automatic Colt pistols, is ill accommodated by the handgun designs of Hugo Borchardt and Georg Luger. If Norinco could get its act together to produce a historically correct and properly functioning 9mm Parabellum pistol fitted and finished to the pre-WWI DWM standard, they would have a best-seller at around $1195.00. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

03-13-2010, 03:43 PM	#8
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	Maybe I would buy a Chinese Luger if the quality is better than in the early 1990"s and the price is right. (Just for the fun to have it). The Chinese Luger shown on the pictures has a poor finnish/quality from the standpoint of a buyer who expects an esthetic looking gun. I bought a Norinco SKS back in the late 80's and this is a very reliable rifle. __________________ Regards, Andy There's No Place Like Home (Wizard Of Oz)

03-12-2010, 12:25 PM	#2
Dan44 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 78 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Years ago I met David Keng at a Fl gunshow. He told me that the "Legend line" of arms from Poly Tech would include Chinese copies of many historic arms. I did not think it would have Lugers.

03-12-2010, 03:15 PM	#10
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	Some closeups of the Norinco: Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

03-12-2010, 03:20 PM	#11
Dan44 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 78 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	From what I've seen in the 90's with the quality of the 1911a1 they sold (low price too) they would of sold a ton of them. They also copied the Walther PPK in some numbers.

03-12-2010, 08:17 PM	#12
772SLR Guest Posts: n/a	I must be pretty sure that the entry price of 2,800 euros for the Luger .45 cal. gun will shoot tru the roof once bidding starts, I must assume this since a Martz 45 Luger cost around $8 to $9,000, a M. Krause one in the vecinity of $24,000(I am told) all this of course if you can find them!!! I wish and hope that someone made a 45 Luger in an affordable price, but after looking at the new reproductions semiautomatic MP 40,MP-44 and FG-42 line of rifles and their price tag, I have come to the conclusion that the "affordable" 45 Luger is just an impossibility.

03-12-2010, 09:25 PM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,774 Thanks: 4,953 Thanked 3,126 Times in 1,435 Posts	Vlim, Thanks for the photo's of the Norinco Luger. It looks to be somewhat disapointing. Poorly made to be sure. I owned a Norinco .45 once and parts fell off of it every time I shot it. Yes..it was cheap. I think I paid 300 for it new. Irritating to have a pistol fall apart at every concievable opportunity though. The Chinese make some great tools and are capable of really good engineering and construction. Will they do it on the P08? It dosen't look like it so far. They would be way ahead if they forgot the 9MM and made a GOOD .45 Luger for $1500-2000. They would sell a ton of those if they were made decently and WORKED. Jerry Burney Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-13-2010, 10:23 AM	#14
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Maybe Norinco will update their quality control as time passes. A properly made .45 Luger would be a huge winner for all if they would make it. Charlie

03-17-2010, 12:31 PM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	The photo of the Chinese Luger looks like the gun was made by convicts with files! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-20-2010, 07:53 AM	#18
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	So long as we are daydreaming, I kind of like nthe idea of a slightly larger Luger chambered in 357 SIG. Sort of a scaled up 7.65 Luger.

03-21-2010, 08:09 AM	#19
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	I believe those are blank firing replica Lugers.....not the real thing!! Here is the google translation of the text... Cal 9 mm Para, Nr 1,001th Nummerngleich. Blanker run. Right at the fork piece called "P. Mod 08". On the upper joint Norinco trademark. Full original burnishing. Dark wood grips. Falzmagazin with Aluboden without number. Interesting and rare counterpart to the regular P. 08 for the Parabellumsammler. Recorded, almost new condition. Erwerbsscheinpflichtig.

03-21-2010, 07:51 PM	#20
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	So the NP20 is a HKP7 knockoff?