WW1 Luger found on Somme battlefields on Saturday

Macadoon · 03-01-2010, 09:32 AM

Hi all,
This is my first post, so please excuse my lack of Luger knowledge as I am not a firearms collector but have some interest as this area is directly allied to my main interest of military history. I found this Luger on the WW1 battlefield of the Somme, and it remains in France, and I am trying to find out more information about it, including:

1. How is the best way to clean it up with a view to finding markings etc?
2. Can it be deactivated and by whom (I will not attempt it AT ALL)?
3. Is it possible to have a bullet in the chamber as well as a full mag?
4. All the grime on the piece noted, is it possible to tell what the manufacturer is from these photos?

basically, I am fascinated by this luger pistol, so any information you can offer is welcome.
Best
Macadoon

Vlim · 03-01-2010, 09:43 AM

Hi,

Yes it is possible to have a round in the chamber and a full magazine, although that wasn't standard practice. With a full magazine inserted, you'll find a total of 8 round, one of which can be located in the chamber, giving you 7 in the magazine.

Although it's safe to say that this pistols firing capabilities are a thing of the past, it is good to observe some caution. The rounds themselves have brass cases and survive in the ground pretty well. The bullet jackets are usually copper washed steel, so expect those to be severely corroded.

I would suggest removing the loose dirt first, then soaking it in a bath of solvents for some time, removing dirt as it works free of the gun. A brass wire brush and some gentle brushing can work miracles.

Macadoon · 03-01-2010, 10:05 AM

Someone has sent me this information:

'When in normal condition, if there is a round in the chamber with the toggle forward, the extractor sticks up above the level of the bolt to expose the word "Geladen", meaning loaded.'

Is this correct, and can anyone tell if the above luger is loaded according to this info and the above photos?

Any tips on cleaning are more than welcome by the way!

Macadoon

Vlim · 03-01-2010, 10:08 AM

Yes, that is correct. But after a few years underground there is a good chance that the extractor has rotted away.

Treat a gun as loaded until you can prove it is unloaded.

Macadoon · 03-01-2010, 10:22 AM

Hi... I have added a better side profile shot in the hope that it might yield info on whether the gun is loaded or not.
As on safety ... I am cautious beyond belief. I am making heaps of queries even before considering cleaning, and will not mess around with amunition. That is best left to qualified people.
Macadoon

Vlim · 03-01-2010, 10:29 AM

Hi, the extractor, which doubles as a loaded chamber indicater is located at the top of the toggle, right after the chamber. You could start cleaning that part first, in order to determine whether the extractor is still there and in what condition it is.

If the extractor is missing (or so badly deteriorated that it will break apart), it will allow you to see part of the cartridge rim if it is in the chamber.

If the barrel is free of obstructions (or cleaned out as much as it can be), you can insert a rod into the barrel and chamber and use that to measure the total distance from the muzzle to the toggle. If there is no round in the chamber, it should be evident by the distance measured.

Note that on this example the extractor was broken in two pieces. I also checked whether a loaded round was in the chamber by using the rod approach. In this particular case there were only the remains of a fired steel case in the chamber. The gun is long gone, I still have the case

suum cuique · 03-01-2010, 10:50 AM

Thor, can you fix it?

Dwight Gruber · 03-01-2010, 12:58 PM

Andrew,

This is a very interesting topic. Please continue to let us know how you progress, with continued excellent pictures--it will be a very good learning experience for all.

--Dwight

Macadoon · 03-01-2010, 01:29 PM

If the gun was loaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the tip of the bullet?
Converseley, if the gun was unloaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the back of the unloaded chamber?
Thanks
Macadoon

Macadoon · 03-01-2010, 02:02 PM

Hi, can anyone provide this thread with certain photographs of a ww1 luger, probably 1915-16 vintage. I found this one on a 1916 battlefield.
In particular, it would be useful to see the left and right sides of the handle, with the wooden hand plates removed?
I would then know exactly what it is I can see, grime etc on my example noted.
I think that is the magazine that can be seen in the handle in the top photo, and that the slide path can be seen (terminology is a bit off).
I've searched the net, but most of the photos it has appear to be of different models and then only from one side, or with the hand grips still on.
Any help greatly appreciated.
For those experts out there... what do these photos tell you about this luger? Any info is useful as you'll be writing for a complete novice who has caught the bug.
Macadoon

alvin · 03-02-2010, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macadoon

I found this one on a 1916 battlefield.

Interested in how it was found. I bet millions of people have visited the site, and most won't find guns on ground surface waiting picking up. Found in a trench? in river? under ground?

I would suggest leave it as is without removing the dirt and rust. Since it's battlefield pick up, this is the best fitting.

Macadoon · 03-02-2010, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Interested in how it was found. I bet millions of people have visited the site, and most won't find guns on ground surface waiting picking up. Found in a trench? in river? under ground?

I would suggest leave it as is without removing the dirt and rust. Since it's battlefield pick up, this is the best fitting.

I found the luger in a paddock that had been recently ploughed, partially under a clod of earth. It had been raining heavily, so metal objects were relatively easy to spot. Only part of the handle was visible. In fact, truth be told, I thought it was a commonly found piece of shrapnel, and I walked past it. Something ... I don't know what ... made me think twice and revisit the spot for a closer look. Hey presto!
I want to emphasise the point that I did not, and do not condone, digging for such things. Nor do I metal detect, which is illegal on the battlefields of France.
Macadoon

Douglas Jr. · 03-02-2010, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macadoon

Hi, can anyone provide this thread with certain photographs of a ww1 luger, probably 1915-16 vintage. I found this one on a 1916 battlefield.

There were two producers of P.08 pistols at that time: DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Munitionfabriken) and Erfurt (Königlich Preussische Gewehrfabrik Erfurt)
Here are some examples:

DWM 1915: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...6a71fdc1bd4cde

DWM 1916: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...6a71fdc1bd4cde

ERFURT 1916: http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...6a71fdc1bd4cde

As you can notice (and according to Vlim's observation), they all look the same concerning its major features: 100mm barrel, fixed sights, caliber 9mm Luger.

Douglas.

suum cuique · 03-01-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macadoon

If the gun was loaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the tip of the bullet?
Converseley, if the gun was unloaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the back of the unloaded chamber?
Thanks
Macadoon

You could put in a pencil til the breech block = approx. 10,2cm.
If it's loaded just 7,4cm.
10,2 cm
- 3,00cm
= 7,2cm

(a regular nowaday FMJ 9mm luger cartridge is 30 mm long, WW1 ammo was slightly shorter)

A.Mifsin · 03-02-2010, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suum cuique

You could put in a pencil til the breech block = approx. 10,2cm.
If it's loaded just 7,4cm.
10,2 cm
- 0,19cm
= 7,3 cm

(a regular nowaday FMJ 9mm luger cartridge is 19mm long, WW1 ammo was slightly shorter)

Am I correct that .19cm is the case, so you have to add the bullet, which give and take is .30cm. overall.

Alf

suum cuique · 03-03-2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Mifsin

Am I correct that .19cm is the case, so you have to add the bullet, which give and take is .30cm. overall.

Alf

Yes of course, you are totally right! What was I thinking at the moment

Just the case is .19mm, sorry.

Vlim · 03-01-2010, 02:15 PM

Hi,

All military P08's are basically the same. Details only differ when it comes to finish (not an issue here) and markings. All small parts, springs and the general layout of the gun are identical. It is virtually impossible to make any decent statements about origin, etc... without a couple of cleaning sessions.

You are correct that the metal tube visible through the grip openings is the magazine. It is still inserted into the pistol. The area behind the magazine houses the main spring (coil spring type).

newluger · 03-01-2010, 02:46 PM

I have found that soaking in automatic transmission fluid works wonders. It probably will not remove everything, but it will help. Please be careful, as Vlim mentioned, consider it as a loaded pistol.

Newluger

DavidJayUden · 03-01-2010, 06:44 PM

"I have found that soaking in automatic transmission fluid works wonders. It probably will not remove everything, but it will help. "
FYI a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone is suppose to be one of the best penetrants going.
dju

Conny · 03-01-2010, 09:38 PM

.....Thor, can you fix it?......

Now that is funny.

03-01-2010, 09:32 AM	#1
Macadoon User Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	WW1 Luger found on Somme battlefields on Saturday Hi all, This is my first post, so please excuse my lack of Luger knowledge as I am not a firearms collector but have some interest as this area is directly allied to my main interest of military history. I found this Luger on the WW1 battlefield of the Somme, and it remains in France, and I am trying to find out more information about it, including: 1. How is the best way to clean it up with a view to finding markings etc? 2. Can it be deactivated and by whom (I will not attempt it AT ALL)? 3. Is it possible to have a bullet in the chamber as well as a full mag? 4. All the grime on the piece noted, is it possible to tell what the manufacturer is from these photos? basically, I am fascinated by this luger pistol, so any information you can offer is welcome. Best Macadoon Attached Images

03-01-2010, 10:05 AM	#3
Macadoon User Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Advice given via email Someone has sent me this information: 'When in normal condition, if there is a round in the chamber with the toggle forward, the extractor sticks up above the level of the bolt to expose the word "Geladen", meaning loaded.' Is this correct, and can anyone tell if the above luger is loaded according to this info and the above photos? Any tips on cleaning are more than welcome by the way! Macadoon

03-01-2010, 10:22 AM	#5
Macadoon User Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Side profile Hi... I have added a better side profile shot in the hope that it might yield info on whether the gun is loaded or not. As on safety ... I am cautious beyond belief. I am making heaps of queries even before considering cleaning, and will not mess around with amunition. That is best left to qualified people. Macadoon Attached Thumbnails

03-01-2010, 10:29 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, the extractor, which doubles as a loaded chamber indicater is located at the top of the toggle, right after the chamber. You could start cleaning that part first, in order to determine whether the extractor is still there and in what condition it is. If the extractor is missing (or so badly deteriorated that it will break apart), it will allow you to see part of the cartridge rim if it is in the chamber. If the barrel is free of obstructions (or cleaned out as much as it can be), you can insert a rod into the barrel and chamber and use that to measure the total distance from the muzzle to the toggle. If there is no round in the chamber, it should be evident by the distance measured. Note that on this example the extractor was broken in two pieces. I also checked whether a loaded round was in the chamber by using the rod approach. In this particular case there were only the remains of a fired steel case in the chamber. The gun is long gone, I still have the case Attached Thumbnails

03-01-2010, 10:50 AM	#7
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 108 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	Thor, can you fix it? __________________ Regards, Andy There's No Place Like Home (Wizard Of Oz)

03-01-2010, 09:43 AM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Yes it is possible to have a round in the chamber and a full magazine, although that wasn't standard practice. With a full magazine inserted, you'll find a total of 8 round, one of which can be located in the chamber, giving you 7 in the magazine. Although it's safe to say that this pistols firing capabilities are a thing of the past, it is good to observe some caution. The rounds themselves have brass cases and survive in the ground pretty well. The bullet jackets are usually copper washed steel, so expect those to be severely corroded. I would suggest removing the loose dirt first, then soaking it in a bath of solvents for some time, removing dirt as it works free of the gun. A brass wire brush and some gentle brushing can work miracles.

03-01-2010, 10:08 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Yes, that is correct. But after a few years underground there is a good chance that the extractor has rotted away. Treat a gun as loaded until you can prove it is unloaded.

03-01-2010, 12:58 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Andrew, This is a very interesting topic. Please continue to let us know how you progress, with continued excellent pictures--it will be a very good learning experience for all. --Dwight

03-01-2010, 01:29 PM	#9
Macadoon User Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The rod approach If the gun was loaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the tip of the bullet? Converseley, if the gun was unloaded, what distance would one expect to measure from the tip of the muzzle to the back of the unloaded chamber? Thanks Macadoon

03-01-2010, 02:02 PM	#10
Macadoon User Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Cutaways would be useful Hi, can anyone provide this thread with certain photographs of a ww1 luger, probably 1915-16 vintage. I found this one on a 1916 battlefield. In particular, it would be useful to see the left and right sides of the handle, with the wooden hand plates removed? I would then know exactly what it is I can see, grime etc on my example noted. I think that is the magazine that can be seen in the handle in the top photo, and that the slide path can be seen (terminology is a bit off). I've searched the net, but most of the photos it has appear to be of different models and then only from one side, or with the hand grips still on. Any help greatly appreciated. For those experts out there... what do these photos tell you about this luger? Any info is useful as you'll be writing for a complete novice who has caught the bug. Macadoon

03-01-2010, 02:15 PM	#17
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, All military P08's are basically the same. Details only differ when it comes to finish (not an issue here) and markings. All small parts, springs and the general layout of the gun are identical. It is virtually impossible to make any decent statements about origin, etc... without a couple of cleaning sessions. You are correct that the metal tube visible through the grip openings is the magazine. It is still inserted into the pistol. The area behind the magazine houses the main spring (coil spring type). Attached Thumbnails

03-01-2010, 02:46 PM	#18
newluger User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Franklin Tennessee Posts: 119 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts	I have found that soaking in automatic transmission fluid works wonders. It probably will not remove everything, but it will help. Please be careful, as Vlim mentioned, consider it as a loaded pistol. Newluger

03-01-2010, 06:44 PM	#19
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	"I have found that soaking in automatic transmission fluid works wonders. It probably will not remove everything, but it will help. " FYI a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone is suppose to be one of the best penetrants going. dju

03-01-2010, 09:38 PM	#20
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	.....Thor, can you fix it?...... Now that is funny. __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker