Need help identifying mark

mrerick · 02-27-2010, 01:04 PM

Hi, I have recently acquired an all matching "42" two digit chamber date, military proof marked Luger.

Rather than a "byf" code on the forward toggle, this pistol has a Mauser Banner.

The serial number suffix looks like:

Even though this suffix letter is listed on this site as a "g" in the photographic Tech Info section, I've been given expert opinion that this is a "y". All the "g" letters have a loop tail. This marking does not. Therefore the serial would be "xx15y".

I can't find discussion of a Mauser Banner toggle documented on a military proofed (e/135) "42" date marked receiver.

I know that toward the end of production, there was production done from the mix of parts that were on hand. Could this be one of those?

- What would the approximate production date be for this pistol?

The forward Mauser Banner toggle has this mark on it's underside:

It looks like a "R" within a "W" with a rounded shape. It's about 1.5 to 2mm in height.

- What is this mark?

Thanks - Marc

alvin · 02-27-2010, 01:36 PM

I would say it's "g", not "y".

No idea on R/W. The hidden mark on guns is usually parts inspector, or supplier identification of the parts.

Frank · 02-27-2010, 06:42 PM

alvin has it right. It's a "g"

mrerick · 02-27-2010, 11:25 PM

So, with a "g" serial number, and a 2 digit "42" date on the receiver:

- Is it unusual to have a military proofed Luger with a Mauser banner toggle?

- What would be a production date estimate?

Thanks, Marc

alvin · 03-02-2010, 10:42 PM

Regarding R/W, it's not singular. Here is another example, Mauser s/n 920498 Selbstlade, which is also the Mauser with biggest s/n that I've seen so far. I don't have Gun Report at hand.... if I remembered right, this is also not far away from the biggest s/n that has been observed by Schroeder. It's circa 1939.

I would believe it's a subcontractor mark. There are a few types of mark on this position, "M" is common, probably means Mauser made barrel. "S" is also observed on late 1930 barrels. WWI era six-point star, etc.

Please note the R/W on this barrel:

Frank · 03-03-2010, 01:12 PM

Marc, I did a bit of research on the "WR" Mark. In Sam Costanzo's Book "World of Lugers", page 219 he states:

"Quality control inspectors stamp found on bottom frame rail and also on middle toggle link." Found on 1938 through 1941 models.

Hope this helps!

mrerick · 03-03-2010, 08:11 PM

Alvin, definitely the same RW inspection mark. Perhaps it's a "M" for Mauser with a "R" for an individual inspector or department... Thank you for the background on this...

Frank, thank you for checking this out. Since the frame is a "42" date, it sounds like this could well have been force matched or a part used from earlier production of Mauser Banners to quickly fulfill a military contract. Since it was re-blued, someone reworked it at some point.

The s/n is in the first 1000 of the "g" series. So perhaps March/April 1942?

Marc

alvin · 03-03-2010, 08:43 PM

I would say it's not M. It's a curved W. And, W and R always go together. I have never seen one with R alone, or that W alone. They always go together, and always in this relative position. Most likely, it's a single stamp, not two stamps.

Please also see the following two examples, and note the M over something on the typical prewar instance -- something might be another stylised M, and the stylized M alone on a later postwar example.

Now, here is my question: does that "something" (assume it's a stylised M) also appear on Mauser made Luger?

alvin · 03-03-2010, 08:57 PM

I checked that "stylised M" on slabstlade under 3x loupe. The more I look at it, the more I feel it's not a single character.

It's monogram "WM", i.e. Waffenfabrik Mauser. Looks very similar to the WM monogram on some rare plastic grip panels of this type of gun.

Let's assume it's "WM". Then, that stamp is more likely being the maker ID of the barrel.

I will take a close picture of that stamp, and a picture of the WM monogram on Mauser grip..... hold on.....

If this is true, then R/W on Luger is also supposed to be parts maker ID.

===

Grip picture stole from a gun listed on FGS website which has WM monogram grip. This camera .... no matter what I do, it can only perform this.... hopefully good enough:

Frank · 03-04-2010, 07:33 AM

Marc, my best guess would be April/May timeframe for 1000g serial number 42 byf.

mrerick · 03-04-2010, 10:33 AM

Alvin, it almost looks like Mauser was trying to mimic the DWM logotype.

Just speculation, but I wonder if WM could relate to "Weimar Mauser" and "RM" to "Reich Mauser" or something similar...

If the RM inspection mark was used in 1938 through 1941, it's possible that the Banner Mauser forward toggle was a left over from a prior manufacturing run, and used for a military contract gun when "byf" parts were unavailable.

Are there any known examples of this?

Marc

alvin · 03-04-2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Just speculation, but I wonder if WM could relate to "Weimar Mauser" and "RM" to "Reich Mauser" or something similar...

No. "WM" stamp of same style not only appears on post WWI gun, it also appears on pre WWI gun.

The earliest "WM" grip that I have seen is on commercial flatside Mauser, circa 1900. The last WM grip that I've seen was on so call French Gendarme variation, circa 1919.

No Weimar on guns. The official name of the postwar republic was not Weimar. It's only a nickname used by historians.

A clearer picture of WM copied from Hermann Historica:

Vlim · 03-05-2010, 12:49 PM

Mauser was once officially called 'Waffenfabrik Mauser' (WM). In the 1920s it changed to 'Mauser-Werke A.G.' (MW). So a W and an M in the logo are to be expected.

The WR / RW logo is often seen in areas that had been inspected for hardness. A popular explanation for the logo is 'Werksrivision', but it is also tempting that it refers to the Rockwell hardness test

02-27-2010, 01:04 PM	#1
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Need help identifying mark Hi, I have recently acquired an all matching "42" two digit chamber date, military proof marked Luger. Rather than a "byf" code on the forward toggle, this pistol has a Mauser Banner. The serial number suffix looks like: Even though this suffix letter is listed on this site as a "g" in the photographic Tech Info section, I've been given expert opinion that this is a "y". All the "g" letters have a loop tail. This marking does not. Therefore the serial would be "xx15y". I can't find discussion of a Mauser Banner toggle documented on a military proofed (e/135) "42" date marked receiver. I know that toward the end of production, there was production done from the mix of parts that were on hand. Could this be one of those? - What would the approximate production date be for this pistol? The forward Mauser Banner toggle has this mark on it's underside: It looks like a "R" within a "W" with a rounded shape. It's about 1.5 to 2mm in height. - What is this mark? Thanks - Marc

03-02-2010, 10:42 PM	#5
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Regarding R/W, it's not singular. Here is another example, Mauser s/n 920498 Selbstlade, which is also the Mauser with biggest s/n that I've seen so far. I don't have Gun Report at hand.... if I remembered right, this is also not far away from the biggest s/n that has been observed by Schroeder. It's circa 1939. I would believe it's a subcontractor mark. There are a few types of mark on this position, "M" is common, probably means Mauser made barrel. "S" is also observed on late 1930 barrels. WWI era six-point star, etc. Please note the R/W on this barrel: Attached Thumbnails

03-03-2010, 08:11 PM	#7
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Alvin, definitely the same RW inspection mark. Perhaps it's a "M" for Mauser with a "R" for an individual inspector or department... Thank you for the background on this... Frank, thank you for checking this out. Since the frame is a "42" date, it sounds like this could well have been force matched or a part used from earlier production of Mauser Banners to quickly fulfill a military contract. Since it was re-blued, someone reworked it at some point. The s/n is in the first 1000 of the "g" series. So perhaps March/April 1942? Marc Last edited by mrerick; 03-04-2010 at 10:26 AM.

03-03-2010, 08:43 PM	#8
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I would say it's not M. It's a curved W. And, W and R always go together. I have never seen one with R alone, or that W alone. They always go together, and always in this relative position. Most likely, it's a single stamp, not two stamps. Please also see the following two examples, and note the M over something on the typical prewar instance -- something might be another stylised M, and the stylized M alone on a later postwar example. Now, here is my question: does that "something" (assume it's a stylised M) also appear on Mauser made Luger? Attached Thumbnails

03-03-2010, 08:57 PM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I checked that "stylised M" on slabstlade under 3x loupe. The more I look at it, the more I feel it's not a single character. It's monogram "WM", i.e. Waffenfabrik Mauser. Looks very similar to the WM monogram on some rare plastic grip panels of this type of gun. Let's assume it's "WM". Then, that stamp is more likely being the maker ID of the barrel. I will take a close picture of that stamp, and a picture of the WM monogram on Mauser grip..... hold on..... If this is true, then R/W on Luger is also supposed to be parts maker ID. === Grip picture stole from a gun listed on FGS website which has WM monogram grip. This camera .... no matter what I do, it can only perform this.... hopefully good enough: Attached Images Last edited by alvin; 03-03-2010 at 09:37 PM. Reason: pix added.

02-27-2010, 01:36 PM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I would say it's "g", not "y". No idea on R/W. The hidden mark on guns is usually parts inspector, or supplier identification of the parts.

02-27-2010, 06:42 PM	#3
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	alvin has it right. It's a "g"

02-27-2010, 11:25 PM	#4
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	So, with a "g" serial number, and a 2 digit "42" date on the receiver: - Is it unusual to have a military proofed Luger with a Mauser banner toggle? - What would be a production date estimate? Thanks, Marc

03-03-2010, 01:12 PM	#6
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Marc, I did a bit of research on the "WR" Mark. In Sam Costanzo's Book "World of Lugers", page 219 he states: "Quality control inspectors stamp found on bottom frame rail and also on middle toggle link." Found on 1938 through 1941 models. Hope this helps!

03-04-2010, 07:33 AM	#10
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Marc, my best guess would be April/May timeframe for 1000g serial number 42 byf.

03-04-2010, 10:33 AM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Alvin, it almost looks like Mauser was trying to mimic the DWM logotype. Just speculation, but I wonder if WM could relate to "Weimar Mauser" and "RM" to "Reich Mauser" or something similar... If the RM inspection mark was used in 1938 through 1941, it's possible that the Banner Mauser forward toggle was a left over from a prior manufacturing run, and used for a military contract gun when "byf" parts were unavailable. Are there any known examples of this? Marc

03-05-2010, 12:49 PM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Mauser was once officially called 'Waffenfabrik Mauser' (WM). In the 1920s it changed to 'Mauser-Werke A.G.' (MW). So a W and an M in the logo are to be expected. The WR / RW logo is often seen in areas that had been inspected for hardness. A popular explanation for the logo is 'Werksrivision', but it is also tempting that it refers to the Rockwell hardness test