Norinco 9mm

sheepherder · 01-06-2010, 02:29 PM

My local gunshop didn't get any Win 231 in yet, so I asked for a box of brass-cased 124gr FMJ cartridges...Only one left was an old box of Norinco...(He had aluminum cased stuff; and hollow points; and frangible bulleted brass-cased stuff; and other stuff guaranteed to break apart if it hits a blade of grass)...

The headstamp reads " 9mm 90 ^ " (that's supposed to be a triangle)...

So...20 year old Chinese 9mm ammo...and no velocity/energy specs...

This should be interesting...

I won't shoot it in Luger/Walther...I'll try a round or two in the Star...If it's too hot, I'll blow it off in the S&W 659...

BTW: The original price tag read $9.99...

jonnyc · 01-06-2010, 03:27 PM

That's excellent shooting ammo in everything I have...except...I haven't tried any in my Luger. That stuff was imported a good while ago, and that was a steep price if original at the time.

Sieger · 01-06-2010, 07:15 PM

Hi:

The Chinese ammo is red hot, +P+, and should not be fired in a Luger!

Sieger

jonnyc · 01-06-2010, 07:24 PM

I have fired hundreds of those rounds, perhaps a 1000 or more, and it is definitely not "red hot" or +P+. I will try to remember to chrono some in one of my next outings.

Sieger · 01-06-2010, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyc

I have fired hundreds of those rounds, perhaps a 1000 or more, and it is definitely not "red hot" or +P+. I will try to remember to chrono some in one of my next outings.

Jonny:

The original Parabellum formula was a 124 grain fmj at 1,076 fps. I have examined original owner's manuals through the 1940s and have found no higher specs. listed. The myth of some special hotter ammo designed to shoot in the MP-38 and MP-40 seems to be just that, a myth.

Norinco ammo is comparable to our current military load, which is loaded at least 20% hotter than the pistol was designed to fire. In commercial specs. Norinco would be +P at least.

It's your Luger, so feel free to fire in it what you will.

Sieger

alamar · 01-06-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyc

I have fired hundreds of those rounds, perhaps a 1000 or more, and it is definitely not "red hot" or +P+. I will try to remember to chrono some in one of my next outings.

I agree, have shot all kinds of calibres from Norinco, including this stuff.

Although as a warning, some of it smells like dog poop when you fire it.

alvin · 01-06-2010, 09:24 PM

I don't have pets so I cannot comment on this. But I tried a few hundred rounds of "Type 51 Pistol Steel Cartridge" 7,62x25 in a Norinco Tokarev some years ago, it smelled like baking sweet potato in oven.

rolandtg · 01-06-2010, 09:41 PM

I shot tons of this back in the day though my Browning, Llama, and Glock with no issues.
But never any though a Luger.

The ammo was brass cased with a brass jacketed bullet. (Or some other gold-colored metal)

sheepherder · 01-07-2010, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolandtg

The ammo was brass cased with a brass jacketed bullet. (Or some other gold-colored metal)

Yes, I noticed that. Pic attached, along with a round of my Sierra copper-jacketed reloads. Interesting. I've only seen one other brass-jacketed round, a WW II military cartridge...

jonnyc · 01-06-2010, 10:23 PM

"The Chinese ammo is red hot, +P+"
"Norinco would be +P at least"

Sieger, make up your mind. I don't think either is actually true, but as I said, I will try to chrono some soon.

Sieger · 01-06-2010, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyc

"The Chinese ammo is red hot, +P+"
"Norinco would be +P at least"

Sieger, make up your mind. I don't think either is actually true, but as I said, I will try to chrono some soon.

Jonny:

What does "at least" mean?

They must have a website somewhere. I'm telling you that it is NATO Spec. ammo.

I suggest you run at least 1,000 rounds through your most prized Luger and see if it is still functioning after the fact.

Sieger

jonnyc · 01-07-2010, 06:02 AM

You tell me, that was your quote.

Mauser George · 01-07-2010, 07:35 AM

Red Hot means something different to everyone. I enjoy Tabasco and find it pleasantly mild. To others it is Red Hot.

Does anyone know the specs of this Norinco ammo as that will tell all?

Stieger, off the top of my head I recall reading that the German 9mm Parabellum ammo being 124 gr and upwards of 1400 FPS!

Current 9mm Luger Winchester USA ammo 124 GR RN is only 1140fps!

Since I reload, I seldom purchase ammo!

Regards,

George

Sieger · 01-07-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mauser George

Red Hot means something different to everyone. I enjoy Tabasco and find it pleasantly mild. To others it is Red Hot.

Does anyone know the specs of this Norinco ammo as that will tell all?

Stieger, off the top of my head I recall reading that the German 9mm Parabellum ammo being 124 gr and upwards of 1400 FPS!

Current 9mm Luger Winchester USA ammo 124 GR RN is only 1140fps!

Since I reload, I seldom purchase ammo!

Regards,

George

Dear George:

Please provide written evidence of the 1,400 fps claim for 124 gr German Army ammo. Believe me, none such evidence exists.

Winchester ammo is propably at the 1,140 fps you claim. This ammo is right at the edge of functionality in some early Lugers, and does jam in others as well.

Current NATO Spec. 9mm is right at 1,260 fps, with a slightly lighter bullet. This is at or near the current Norinco ammo level (blue and red box). It is loaded approximately 20% hotter than the original German military ammo.

Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo. They usually will jam on the stuff.

Sieger

Mauser George · 01-08-2010, 10:29 PM

Sieger:

You asked me to provide evidence of 1400 fps for a 124 gr ammo. Yet you then state to believe you, none such evidence exist!

If you happen to own any reading material regarding Lugers, may I suggest that you do some research in this regard. You just may find what I said to be true as it is discussed in detail and is in black & white.

When I mentioned the specs on the Winchester USA Ammo in my posting, there is no propably(SP?) as you stated in your response. My information is from Winchester printed material as well was their internet site!

I would like to respectfully ask you where you ever came up with the information to make the following two statements?

1) Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo.
2) They usually will jam on the stuff. How so?

Regards,

George

Sieger · 01-09-2010, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mauser George

"You asked me to provide evidence of 1,400 fps for a 124 gr ammo. Yet you then state to believe you, none such evidence exist! If you happen to own any reading material regarding Lugers, may I suggest that you do some research in this regard. You just may find what I said to be true as it is discussed in detail and is in black & white. "

As you couldn't or wouldn't site your source for the 1,400 fps 124 gr German ammo, let me site my sources for the 1,076 fps 123 grain German ammo (which is specifically identified as Luger ammo) by the original manufactures and distributors themselves.

1) From "Die Pistole 08", Joachim Goertz, page 200, Muendungsgeschwindigkeit 327 m/sec. bei 100mm Lauflaenge.

2) From "Die Selbstlade Pistole Parabellum-Original Mauser", Mauser owners' manual of the late 1930s. Technische Merkmale, Geschossgeschwindigkeit 322 m/sec. (100mm Lauflaenge).

3) From "Die Selbstlade-Pistole Parabellum" DWM's pre WWI commercial owners' Manual, Anfangsgeschwindigkeit des Geschosses 310m/sec. bei 100mm Lauflaenge.

4) From "German Infantry Weapons", Donald McLean, 1966,
page 5, muzzle velocity 1,040 fps.

5) From "Pacific Arms Corporation", 1922, page 8, velocity at muzzle, 1,039 fps.

6) From "A. F. Stoeger, Inc., Catalog No 18", page 136, velocity at muzzle, 1,040 fps.

The hottest of the metric loads 327 m/sec is the 1,076 fps load I quote herein.

I've been studying the original Parabellum specs. for years and from various sources, both from the original manufactures and original distributors sources.

"When I mentioned the specs on the Winchester USA Ammo in my posting, there is no propably(SP?) as you stated in your response. My information is from Winchester printed material as well was their internet site!

Great!

I would like to respectfully ask you where you ever came up with the information to make the following two statements?

"1) Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo."

Please see my discussion of the original manufacturers and distributors specs. above.

"2) They usually will jam on the stuff. How so?"

I've been shooting Lugers for some 40 years and loading for them for some 30 years. If you load with medium burning rate powders (SR 4756 is excellent) at a velocity somewhat near the ones sited above, the pistols work beautifully and do not jam. Load them much hotter, and the springs get out of timing and the pistols will jam.

Regards,

George

Sieger

Sieger · 01-07-2010, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyc

You tell me, that was your quote.

Jonny:

The phrase "at least" means...I'm trying to help the readers of this to keep their Lugers and their hands together.

Sieger

Conny · 01-07-2010, 12:56 PM

Jonny---Well, I'm not going to say the Norinco ammo is good or bad. I personally DO NOT EVER use ammo from a Communist Country. You cannot trust their products (toys, appliances, etc.) and I darn well wouldn't trust their ammo. If the burnt powder smells funny, it's probably because they make/use different or added components in the powder. So how can this ammo be NATO Spec? My wife (Taiwan Chinese) and I don't trust anything from China.

I will say if you shoot it in your Luger and things go bad, please don't cry here. It's your Luger, do what you want. Remember, Safety First!

jonnyc · 01-07-2010, 04:21 PM

"That's excellent shooting ammo in everything I have...except...I haven't tried any in my Luger. That stuff was imported a good while ago, and that was a steep price if original at the time."

Hmmm...this was my first post on the subject. Where does it say I'm planning on shooting any particular brand of ammo in my Luger? While we're at it, the usual Luger/ammo myth is that they only work with hot ammo, not that "weak American crap". Again, while we're at it, has anyone ever seen, first-hand, a Luger explode while firing NATO-spec or other "hot" ammo? I very much doubt it.

"The phrase "at least" means...I'm trying to help the readers of this to keep their Lugers and their hands together." - Sieger

"if you shoot it in your Luger and things go bad, please don't cry here" - Conny

I think you both have some serious ammo issues. I'll post the chrono results when I get to it.

Sieger · 01-07-2010, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyc

Again, while we're at it, has anyone ever seen, first-hand, a Luger explode while firing NATO-spec or other "hot" ammo? I very much doubt it.

Dear Jonny:

Yes we do have an example!

Just a few months ago, on this very forum, we had a report (photos included) of a Luger cracking both sides of its slide while shooting the Chinese stuff. Please do a search and you will find it.

Sieger

01-06-2010, 02:29 PM	#1
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,195 Thanks: 1,413 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	Norinco 9mm My local gunshop didn't get any Win 231 in yet, so I asked for a box of brass-cased 124gr FMJ cartridges...Only one left was an old box of Norinco...(He had aluminum cased stuff; and hollow points; and frangible bulleted brass-cased stuff; and other stuff guaranteed to break apart if it hits a blade of grass)... The headstamp reads " 9mm 90 ^ " (that's supposed to be a triangle)... So...20 year old Chinese 9mm ammo...and no velocity/energy specs... This should be interesting... I won't shoot it in Luger/Walther...I'll try a round or two in the Star...If it's too hot, I'll blow it off in the S&W 659... BTW: The original price tag read $9.99... Attached Thumbnails

01-07-2010, 12:56 PM	#18
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Jonny---Well, I'm not going to say the Norinco ammo is good or bad. I personally DO NOT EVER use ammo from a Communist Country. You cannot trust their products (toys, appliances, etc.) and I darn well wouldn't trust their ammo. If the burnt powder smells funny, it's probably because they make/use different or added components in the powder. So how can this ammo be NATO Spec? My wife (Taiwan Chinese) and I don't trust anything from China. I will say if you shoot it in your Luger and things go bad, please don't cry here. It's your Luger, do what you want. Remember, Safety First! __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker

01-06-2010, 03:27 PM	#2
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	That's excellent shooting ammo in everything I have...except...I haven't tried any in my Luger. That stuff was imported a good while ago, and that was a steep price if original at the time.

01-06-2010, 07:15 PM	#3
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,579 Thanks: 2,142 Thanked 402 Times in 251 Posts	Hi: The Chinese ammo is red hot, +P+, and should not be fired in a Luger! Sieger

01-06-2010, 07:24 PM	#4
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	I have fired hundreds of those rounds, perhaps a 1000 or more, and it is definitely not "red hot" or +P+. I will try to remember to chrono some in one of my next outings.

01-06-2010, 09:24 PM	#7
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I don't have pets so I cannot comment on this. But I tried a few hundred rounds of "Type 51 Pistol Steel Cartridge" 7,62x25 in a Norinco Tokarev some years ago, it smelled like baking sweet potato in oven.

01-06-2010, 09:41 PM	#8
rolandtg User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 479 Thanks: 388 Thanked 265 Times in 114 Posts	I shot tons of this back in the day though my Browning, Llama, and Glock with no issues. But never any though a Luger. The ammo was brass cased with a brass jacketed bullet. (Or some other gold-colored metal)

01-06-2010, 10:23 PM	#10
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	"The Chinese ammo is red hot, +P+" "Norinco would be +P at least" Sieger, make up your mind. I don't think either is actually true, but as I said, I will try to chrono some soon.

01-07-2010, 06:02 AM	#12
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	You tell me, that was your quote.

01-07-2010, 07:35 AM	#13
Mauser George User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 88 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Red Hot means something different to everyone. I enjoy Tabasco and find it pleasantly mild. To others it is Red Hot. Does anyone know the specs of this Norinco ammo as that will tell all? Stieger, off the top of my head I recall reading that the German 9mm Parabellum ammo being 124 gr and upwards of 1400 FPS! Current 9mm Luger Winchester USA ammo 124 GR RN is only 1140fps! Since I reload, I seldom purchase ammo! Regards, George

01-08-2010, 10:29 PM	#15
Mauser George User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 88 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Sieger: You asked me to provide evidence of 1400 fps for a 124 gr ammo. Yet you then state to believe you, none such evidence exist! If you happen to own any reading material regarding Lugers, may I suggest that you do some research in this regard. You just may find what I said to be true as it is discussed in detail and is in black & white. When I mentioned the specs on the Winchester USA Ammo in my posting, there is no propably(SP?) as you stated in your response. My information is from Winchester printed material as well was their internet site! I would like to respectfully ask you where you ever came up with the information to make the following two statements? 1) Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo. 2) They usually will jam on the stuff. How so? Regards, George

01-07-2010, 04:21 PM	#19
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	"That's excellent shooting ammo in everything I have...except...I haven't tried any in my Luger. That stuff was imported a good while ago, and that was a steep price if original at the time." Hmmm...this was my first post on the subject. Where does it say I'm planning on shooting any particular brand of ammo in my Luger? While we're at it, the usual Luger/ammo myth is that they only work with hot ammo, not that "weak American crap". Again, while we're at it, has anyone ever seen, first-hand, a Luger explode while firing NATO-spec or other "hot" ammo? I very much doubt it. "The phrase "at least" means...I'm trying to help the readers of this to keep their Lugers and their hands together." - Sieger "if you shoot it in your Luger and things go bad, please don't cry here" - Conny I think you both have some serious ammo issues. I'll post the chrono results when I get to it.