Questions about an 1913 Erfurt

Nato · 09-26-2009, 08:59 PM

First off, hello everyone and good evening.

I have located a 1913 Erfurt military luger in a local shop. I am an experiance collector and restorer of military rifles, but not so much of handgun. As this would be my first jaunt in the luger world I figure I should ask the experts (if you need to know anything about a FAL let me know).

First of the specs of the pistol
1913 Erfurt MFG
Unit markings: 30th infantry regiment 15th Machine Gun Company
All matching numbers
The bolt does not hold open, I know that some are machined for it, but for some reason the device is missing. Would this pistol have been milled for the device?

The finish is rather ruff and here is my main question did these things every have a 2 type of finish? It was odviously left in a leather holster for some considerable about of time. While the frame and "toggle holder" have the wear you would expect from that. The barrel and toggle look like they had been parkerized before being put into the holster.

The barrel is in rather good shape, a little frosty but strong lands and grooves.

Where I be looking at a rifle say an FN-49 I would be looking at a prime canditate for restoration, I.E. refinishing, Respringing, etc. However I do not know about pistols and would like the opinions of those more knowledgeable. Would this be a leave AS-IS or a Restoration type of pistol?

drbuster · 09-26-2009, 09:19 PM

Nato, the 1913 Erfurt luger is a desirable collection piece. According to Jan Still's Imperial Lugers, only 23,000 were made and only 5% are unit marked. An original complete 1913 Erfurt should have an unrelieved sear bar, no stock lug, proofing on the grip screws and no notch on the receiver front for an artillery sight. As to the off-beat finish, we here would like to see photographs, as a refinished piece would definitely devalue the luger, even this desirable one.

Nato · 09-26-2009, 09:35 PM

Right then, unfortunately no photo's will be avalible for some time. It has proofing on grip screws, no stock lug, is there a link to photo's of a unrelieved sear bar as opposed to a relieved sear bar?

Would 700 be an acceptable price for such a piece?

Jan C Still · 09-27-2009, 01:40 AM

nato
Would be nice to see the unit stamps that this unit ID derived from?
Unit markings: 30th infantry regiment 15th Machine Gun Company
Thanks
Jan

Mauser720 · 09-27-2009, 08:37 AM

nato -

Not having the "hold-open" installed is not necessarily a problem. Starting in May 1913, all furture P08s were to be made with the hold-open and all ones in service were to have it added. And all made after August 1913 were to have the stock lug included too. Most, but not all, will have the hold open.

If it has all matching serial numbers, that is desirable, especially if the magazine matches too. If it has not already been refinished, then it should not be messed with, because that will greatly devalue it. In other words, matching serial numbers with an original finish is best left alone.

The amount of the original finish left will determine the value, and that is why collectors will want to see pictures. If it has truly been parkerized, that is a shame.

In my opinion, it might be worth the $700 you mentioned in your question above, all depending on the finish.

And the 1913 Erfurts will have a rougher fit and finish than the DWMs of the same period too.

George Anderson · 09-27-2009, 09:05 PM

I beg to differ on a few points with Mauser720. A 1913 Erfurt should have very fine machining and finishing much like DWM Lugers. It is not until 1916 that the Erfurts get really rough although '14s can be a bit rough.
If, as you say, it is marked to the 30th Infantry Regiment one would expect it to have a hold-open added as the 30th was a Prussian unit. Bavarian and Wurtemberger units are noted for not having hold-opens added. It may just be missing the hold-open.

FNorm · 09-27-2009, 09:27 PM

Unrelieved sear bar: Put the safety on. If the sear bar notch, an angled cut, almost touches the safety it is unrelieved. If there is about a 3-8 inch gap it is relieved. This was not mandated til August 1913.

FN

Nato · 09-27-2009, 11:06 PM

I see, unrelieved then. I will get pictures sometime this week and post them here for you all to look at. Thank you all for you help thus far

Mauser720 · 09-28-2009, 12:18 AM

George -

Regarding this comment: "A 1913 Erfurt should have very fine machining and finishing much like DWM Lugers."

I'm only going by what it says in Still's "Imperial Lugers" at the bottom of page #60 in which it states regarding 1913 Erfurts: "Rougher fit and finish than DWM Lugers of the same period."

However, maybe more information has become available since this was written in 1991.

Augsburger · 09-28-2009, 01:54 PM

My 1913 has a noticeably better finish than my 1914 through 1918's. Listen to George

jamese · 09-30-2009, 07:07 AM

I don't think $700 is out of Line for a Unit marked 1913 if its all matching. Depending on the finnish. If its all pitted its worth less of course.

would like to see some photos

My .02

Jim

09-26-2009, 08:59 PM	#1
Nato User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Questions about an 1913 Erfurt First off, hello everyone and good evening. I have located a 1913 Erfurt military luger in a local shop. I am an experiance collector and restorer of military rifles, but not so much of handgun. As this would be my first jaunt in the luger world I figure I should ask the experts (if you need to know anything about a FAL let me know). First of the specs of the pistol 1913 Erfurt MFG Unit markings: 30th infantry regiment 15th Machine Gun Company All matching numbers The bolt does not hold open, I know that some are machined for it, but for some reason the device is missing. Would this pistol have been milled for the device? The finish is rather ruff and here is my main question did these things every have a 2 type of finish? It was odviously left in a leather holster for some considerable about of time. While the frame and "toggle holder" have the wear you would expect from that. The barrel and toggle look like they had been parkerized before being put into the holster. The barrel is in rather good shape, a little frosty but strong lands and grooves. Where I be looking at a rifle say an FN-49 I would be looking at a prime canditate for restoration, I.E. refinishing, Respringing, etc. However I do not know about pistols and would like the opinions of those more knowledgeable. Would this be a leave AS-IS or a Restoration type of pistol?

09-27-2009, 08:37 AM	#5
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	nato - Not having the "hold-open" installed is not necessarily a problem. Starting in May 1913, all furture P08s were to be made with the hold-open and all ones in service were to have it added. And all made after August 1913 were to have the stock lug included too. Most, but not all, will have the hold open. If it has all matching serial numbers, that is desirable, especially if the magazine matches too. If it has not already been refinished, then it should not be messed with, because that will greatly devalue it. In other words, matching serial numbers with an original finish is best left alone. The amount of the original finish left will determine the value, and that is why collectors will want to see pictures. If it has truly been parkerized, that is a shame. In my opinion, it might be worth the $700 you mentioned in your question above, all depending on the finish. And the 1913 Erfurts will have a rougher fit and finish than the DWMs of the same period too. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

09-27-2009, 09:27 PM	#7
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	Unrelieved sear bar: Put the safety on. If the sear bar notch, an angled cut, almost touches the safety it is unrelieved. If there is about a 3-8 inch gap it is relieved. This was not mandated til August 1913. FN Last edited by FNorm; 09-27-2009 at 09:32 PM. Reason: add

09-28-2009, 12:18 AM	#9
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	George - Regarding this comment: "A 1913 Erfurt should have very fine machining and finishing much like DWM Lugers." I'm only going by what it says in Still's "Imperial Lugers" at the bottom of page #60 in which it states regarding 1913 Erfurts: "Rougher fit and finish than DWM Lugers of the same period." However, maybe more information has become available since this was written in 1991. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

09-28-2009, 01:54 PM	#10
Augsburger User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Tejas Posts: 160 Thanks: 17 Thanked 14 Times in 5 Posts	My 1913 has a noticeably better finish than my 1914 through 1918's. Listen to George __________________ Wilder Eber

09-26-2009, 09:19 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Nato, the 1913 Erfurt luger is a desirable collection piece. According to Jan Still's Imperial Lugers, only 23,000 were made and only 5% are unit marked. An original complete 1913 Erfurt should have an unrelieved sear bar, no stock lug, proofing on the grip screws and no notch on the receiver front for an artillery sight. As to the off-beat finish, we here would like to see photographs, as a refinished piece would definitely devalue the luger, even this desirable one.

09-26-2009, 09:35 PM	#3
Nato User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Right then, unfortunately no photo's will be avalible for some time. It has proofing on grip screws, no stock lug, is there a link to photo's of a unrelieved sear bar as opposed to a relieved sear bar? Would 700 be an acceptable price for such a piece?

09-27-2009, 01:40 AM	#4
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	nato Would be nice to see the unit stamps that this unit ID derived from? Unit markings: 30th infantry regiment 15th Machine Gun Company Thanks Jan

09-27-2009, 09:05 PM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I beg to differ on a few points with Mauser720. A 1913 Erfurt should have very fine machining and finishing much like DWM Lugers. It is not until 1916 that the Erfurts get really rough although '14s can be a bit rough. If, as you say, it is marked to the 30th Infantry Regiment one would expect it to have a hold-open added as the 30th was a Prussian unit. Bavarian and Wurtemberger units are noted for not having hold-opens added. It may just be missing the hold-open.

09-27-2009, 11:06 PM	#8
Nato User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I see, unrelieved then. I will get pictures sometime this week and post them here for you all to look at. Thank you all for you help thus far

09-30-2009, 07:07 AM	#11
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	I don't think $700 is out of Line for a Unit marked 1913 if its all matching. Depending on the finnish. If its all pitted its worth less of course. would like to see some photos My .02 Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception