1921 DWM courious proofmarks

charly239 · 09-06-2009, 02:27 PM

hallo

this came today across.....1921 DWM number match without mag....condition is fine....but look at the proof marks,what is the right one??

best regards

charly239 · 09-06-2009, 02:34 PM

something for the eyes

Ron Smith · 09-06-2009, 03:46 PM

These Proofs aka Waffenamts, are found only on 1920 and 1921 production DWM military and police Lugers. Known as "Dove" and/or "Buzzard" proofs. They are found in different combinations. Eagle(Dove)over WaA4 or ArA4, and Eagle(Buzzard)over WaA4 or ArA4. Yours has two Doves and the Buzzard (on the right).

I'm not certain that anyone knows why they were of both designs, or found in different combinations. Other than to identify the individual inspectors that they were assigned to.

Ron

George Anderson · 09-06-2009, 04:02 PM

I believe that the stamp on the right is the Weimar firing proof and the two to the left are Reichswehr inspection stamps.

Don M · 09-06-2009, 04:10 PM

1921 was the transition year from the Ausrüstungsamt (ArA) to the Waffenamt (WaA). Perhaps they also changed from the buzzard to the dove. This pistol probably was produced during that transition.

Ron Smith · 09-06-2009, 05:12 PM

Don,

You're right, I had forgotten the term "Ausrüstungsamt". Do you know the approximate month that they began the change over? Do you have any information on why they are found intermingled? Kind of mixed and matched from what I have seen.

Ron

charly239 · 09-06-2009, 05:33 PM

thanks a lot for your help

what is the suffix under the serial

a b or an l

regards

charly239 · 09-06-2009, 05:44 PM

hallo again

is this a police or a military one

what´did you mean

best regards

Ron Smith · 09-06-2009, 06:02 PM

Yours is a military with "b" suffix. All military 1921s are no suffix, a or b suffixed. Are there any markings on front grip strap?

charly239 · 09-06-2009, 06:31 PM

hallo

no there are no moore markings

regards

Don M · 09-06-2009, 08:49 PM

Ron, I recall having read something about the transition from ArA4 to WaA4 but can't remember where or anything more about it. The formation of ArA4 is discussed in Görtz & Bryans, p. 131.

George is probably correct that the right stamp is the Weimar firing proof.

Ron Smith · 09-06-2009, 09:53 PM

Don,

It's an Eagle over ArA4. I have 6 1921 military Lugers, 4 in the b suffix block which are marked as in the photo. They all have a variation of Eagle(Dove)over WaA4 and/or Eagle (Buzzard) over ArA4 or AyA4. If by "Weimar Firing proof" you mean the droop eagle as found on early Mauser Lugers? It is not the same.

Ron

charly239 · 09-07-2009, 04:55 AM

hallo

what are the correct mags for those luger

wood,alu bottom,chrome mags

the tool have a proof or marker

thanks a lot

regards

Ron Smith · 09-07-2009, 10:42 AM

The correct magazine would be the early Imperial style crimped white sheet metal, with either a wood bottom (early issue) or aluminum bottom (later issue). The issue magazine for the Army Lugers will have the SN and suffix, the spare would have a + symbol stamped on it. Police magazines will have a 1 or 2 stamped on the base. They used whatever they had available. Holsters were reissued Imperials for the most part.

The Army contract was for approx. 10,000 1921 production Lugers. So, 1921 Army Lugers are not all that common. The magazines were often mix and match. And surplus wood bottom WWI Imperial magazines were often used.

Ron

charly239 · 09-29-2009, 03:44 PM

is this correct that only 10000 DWM units are made for military in 1920 /21 ??

regards t.

Ron Smith · 09-29-2009, 03:54 PM

Yes, between 8,000 and 10,000 were procured by the military.

Dwight Gruber · 09-29-2009, 10:30 PM

The difference between the dove and eagle WaA4 is simply the replacement of the stempel used by the inspector. The eagle is sometimes found above ArA, and sometimes above WaA, denoting the change in the name of the inspection office. The firing proof inspector retained his e/WaA4 stamp long after the old, worn eagle inspection and acceptance stamps were replaced with the dove stamp. Eventually the firing proof stamp was replaced as well, as late production is found with all dove/WaA4 stamps .

--Dwight

charly239 · 09-30-2009, 02:43 AM

i thing i found a rare bird

regards t.

charly239 · 09-30-2009, 05:20 PM

hallo again

is this correct...grips arent marked with any proofs

what do you thing about the worth??

regards t.

Ron Smith · 09-30-2009, 06:22 PM

Thomas,

Even though they are scarce. 1920 & 1921 military Lugers haven't gained a big following among collectors. They don't have the "Romance" of WWI Imperial Lugers, nor the "Mystique" of the WWII Nazi Mauser Lugers.

I have a different view, because I have studied the Weimar Reichswehr era, and have found it to be a fascinating time in Germany's history.

If it was unit marked, the value would be enhanced somewhat. In todays slow market it is worth $1200 to $1300. In an optimistic market, maybe $1500 to $1600 on average.

Ron

09-06-2009, 02:27 PM	#1
charly239 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Europe Posts: 211 Thanks: 16 Thanked 10 Times in 2 Posts	1921 DWM courious proofmarks hallo this came today across.....1921 DWM number match without mag....condition is fine....but look at the proof marks,what is the right one?? best regards Last edited by charly239; 09-25-2014 at 11:07 AM.

09-06-2009, 02:34 PM	#2
charly239 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Europe Posts: 211 Thanks: 16 Thanked 10 Times in 2 Posts	moore pics something for the eyes Last edited by charly239; 09-25-2014 at 11:07 AM.

09-06-2009, 03:46 PM	#3
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	These Proofs aka Waffenamts, are found only on 1920 and 1921 production DWM military and police Lugers. Known as "Dove" and/or "Buzzard" proofs. They are found in different combinations. Eagle(Dove)over WaA4 or ArA4, and Eagle(Buzzard)over WaA4 or ArA4. Yours has two Doves and the Buzzard (on the right). I'm not certain that anyone knows why they were of both designs, or found in different combinations. Other than to identify the individual inspectors that they were assigned to. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-06-2009, 04:10 PM	#5
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	1921 was the transition year from the Ausrüstungsamt (ArA) to the Waffenamt (WaA). Perhaps they also changed from the buzzard to the dove. This pistol probably was produced during that transition. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-06-2009, 05:12 PM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Don, You're right, I had forgotten the term "Ausrüstungsamt". Do you know the approximate month that they began the change over? Do you have any information on why they are found intermingled? Kind of mixed and matched from what I have seen. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-06-2009, 04:02 PM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I believe that the stamp on the right is the Weimar firing proof and the two to the left are Reichswehr inspection stamps.

09-06-2009, 05:33 PM	#7
charly239 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Europe Posts: 211 Thanks: 16 Thanked 10 Times in 2 Posts	thanks a lot for your help what is the suffix under the serial a b or an l regards

09-06-2009, 05:44 PM	#8
charly239 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Europe Posts: 211 Thanks: 16 Thanked 10 Times in 2 Posts	hallo again is this a police or a military one what´did you mean best regards

09-06-2009, 06:02 PM	#9
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Yours is a military with "b" suffix. All military 1921s are no suffix, a or b suffixed. Are there any markings on front grip strap? __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-06-2009, 06:31 PM	#10
charly239 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Europe Posts: 211 Thanks: 16 Thanked 10 Times in 2 Posts	hallo no there are no moore markings regards

09-06-2009, 08:49 PM	#11
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Ron, I recall having read something about the transition from ArA4 to WaA4 but can't remember where or anything more about it. The formation of ArA4 is discussed in Görtz & Bryans, p. 131. George is probably correct that the right stamp is the Weimar firing proof. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-06-2009, 09:53 PM	#12
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Don, It's an Eagle over ArA4. I have 6 1921 military Lugers, 4 in the b suffix block which are marked as in the photo. They all have a variation of Eagle(Dove)over WaA4 and/or Eagle (Buzzard) over ArA4 or AyA4. If by "Weimar Firing proof" you mean the droop eagle as found on early Mauser Lugers? It is not the same. Ron Attached Thumbnails Attached Images __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-07-2009, 04:55 AM	#13
charly239 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Europe Posts: 211 Thanks: 16 Thanked 10 Times in 2 Posts	hallo what are the correct mags for those luger wood,alu bottom,chrome mags the tool have a proof or marker thanks a lot regards

09-07-2009, 10:42 AM	#14
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	The correct magazine would be the early Imperial style crimped white sheet metal, with either a wood bottom (early issue) or aluminum bottom (later issue). The issue magazine for the Army Lugers will have the SN and suffix, the spare would have a + symbol stamped on it. Police magazines will have a 1 or 2 stamped on the base. They used whatever they had available. Holsters were reissued Imperials for the most part. The Army contract was for approx. 10,000 1921 production Lugers. So, 1921 Army Lugers are not all that common. The magazines were often mix and match. And surplus wood bottom WWI Imperial magazines were often used. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-29-2009, 03:44 PM	#15
charly239 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Europe Posts: 211 Thanks: 16 Thanked 10 Times in 2 Posts	is this correct that only 10000 DWM units are made for military in 1920 /21 ?? regards t.

09-29-2009, 03:54 PM	#16
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Yes, between 8,000 and 10,000 were procured by the military. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-29-2009, 10:30 PM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	The difference between the dove and eagle WaA4 is simply the replacement of the stempel used by the inspector. The eagle is sometimes found above ArA, and sometimes above WaA, denoting the change in the name of the inspection office. The firing proof inspector retained his e/WaA4 stamp long after the old, worn eagle inspection and acceptance stamps were replaced with the dove stamp. Eventually the firing proof stamp was replaced as well, as late production is found with all dove/WaA4 stamps . --Dwight

09-30-2009, 02:43 AM	#18
charly239 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Europe Posts: 211 Thanks: 16 Thanked 10 Times in 2 Posts	i thing i found a rare bird regards t.

09-30-2009, 05:20 PM	#19
charly239 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Europe Posts: 211 Thanks: 16 Thanked 10 Times in 2 Posts	hallo again is this correct...grips arent marked with any proofs what do you thing about the worth?? regards t.

09-30-2009, 06:22 PM	#20
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Thomas, Even though they are scarce. 1920 & 1921 military Lugers haven't gained a big following among collectors. They don't have the "Romance" of WWI Imperial Lugers, nor the "Mystique" of the WWII Nazi Mauser Lugers. I have a different view, because I have studied the Weimar Reichswehr era, and have found it to be a fascinating time in Germany's history. If it was unit marked, the value would be enhanced somewhat. In todays slow market it is worth $1200 to $1300. In an optimistic market, maybe $1500 to $1600 on average. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...