Luger Frame

dougfw190 · 05-17-2009, 12:40 AM

I have a Luger frame that I purchased years ago at an auction. I'm guessing that some GI liberated the frame at the end of the war from a Luger factory, but there is no way to tell, One interesting part of the story is that the frame has not any machining done to it nor have any numbers or letters been stamped on it. It appears as though it is just the casting(?) and no further work has been done to it. I have always wanted a Luger for target shooting similar to the post war models made by Mauser (one is shown in John Walters' book. A friend has borrowed it or I would reference the page number and provide a little more detail). I have a couple of questions: Is the frame of value for what I want to do with it? In a very general sense, how much money would I be talking about to finish a project such as this? Who might be capable of (and interested in) a project like this? Thanks for any advice/suggestions.

G.T. · 05-17-2009, 01:04 AM

Hi dougfw190... I like your forum name as I am a huge fw190 fan, especuially the ta152... We were pretty fortunate they were as pressed, as they were...

As for the frame... we need pictures.... as to value, except for a conversation piece, an unfinished frame is pretty much just a real neat piece of Luger history... As it is nearly impossible to cost effectively complete, especially if only partially, or for that matter, even mostly finished??... Excellent P.08 frames are not very expensive, available, and waaayyyy cheaper then asking a good machinest to even clamp one in his mill vice !! But I personally, really like to see the different stages of manufacture, so it would have a bit more value to someone like me, a knothead that just can't seem to get enough punishment in daily life!! Put some pics on the forum, there are enough of us that like the devolopment history that you'll get a few opinions on value and potential.... best to you, til...lat'r...GT

Edward Tinker · 05-17-2009, 08:53 AM

Building up a frame into a luger probably costs more than a shooter by the time you are done; that said it is easy to find a frame if you look around for a bit, heck I have 2 sitting around upstairs awaiting on being built up

Ed

Vlim · 05-17-2009, 11:13 AM

Apart from that, if it is a liberated WW2 frame, it may have more value as that, than as anything converted into a finished product.

My guess is that it is one of the leftover Mauser Parabellum frames, but hard to tell without photos.

sheepherder · 05-17-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougfw190

I have a Luger frame that I purchased years ago at an auction. I'm guessing that some GI liberated the frame at the end of the war from a Luger factory, but there is no way to tell...

By coincidence, I was reading a thread at CNCGuns.com about P-38 unmachined frames and parts kits...I have no interest in machining a P-38, but it was mildly interesting to know that such things were available...

http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd....rSuperSKU=&MC=

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/GNS065-1.html

Vlim · 05-17-2009, 12:04 PM

A possible problem is: What if they were rejects? Structurally unsound, wrong steel composition, etc... ?

sheepherder · 05-17-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

A possible problem is: What if they were rejects? Structurally unsound, wrong steel composition, etc... ?

...

...Like 1020 steel Proof Of Concept/tooling trials blanks...never to be used; just for testing machinery or cutting bits...

Vlim · 05-17-2009, 12:38 PM

Yes, I know Mauser rejected quite a number of small parts because of stress and weakness issues, especially sintered parts like the firing pins and the sear bars. I like those forgings though, they're a great piece of weapons development history.

dougfw190 · 05-17-2009, 02:48 PM

Thanks for the answers. Here are some pictures. I'm not very good with close-ups

sheepherder · 05-17-2009, 03:10 PM

That's *unmachined*???

That one is ripe for finishing...

You sure none of those holes are drilled??? If that's a casting, it's pretty close to being finished...if it's a forging, it's like 95% finished...

On a related note: Did the German mfg's machine from forgings, billets, or just plain steel slabs???

G.T. · 05-17-2009, 04:03 PM

Kinda neat just the way it is... If you ever want to sell it, let me know, I'd never finish it, but would really like to study it...

... BTW, I think Luger frames started out as a rough forging, receivers also..... as far as I know, all of them from early to late Mauser?? I'm sure, they could cast a 95% net finished frame today.. but it would REALLY cost'ya!

best to all, til....lat'r....GT

sheepherder · 05-17-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougfw190

Is the frame of value for what I want to do with it? In a very general sense, how much money would I be talking about to finish a project such as this? Who might be capable of (and interested in) a project like this?

If you wish to finish it yourself, you can do so fairly cheaply...but only if you have the tools to do it...

The BATF allows you to make/finish your own firearm without any kind of license, but if you want someone else to do it, you can only have a licensed firearm manufacturer do it *for* you...

I can't see what all still needs machining on that, but if it is a forging or billet (or even just a steel slab), it would be a cool project if you're a machinist type...

If it's a casting, it's not worth doing anything to it...

CNCGuns.com is a Forum that has a lot of 80% projects going on all the time; I have several of mine detailed there...Roderus is another DIY site...

If you don't have a lathe and milling machine, I wouldn't bother trying to finish off any kind of unmachined receiver/slide/whatever...

Just my $.02...

BTW: There are all kinds of rulings on what you can make and can't make or do..."80%" receivers are the preferred choice of amateur gun manglers...There are many (and different) local, state, and federal rules to follow for "rolling your own"...best to check with your local agency to find out what they require; then work your way up the "tree"...

BTW: If you do decide to do it yourself, John Sabato has a Luger Blueprints CD with all the dimensions you'll need to finish/check that frame...

Vlim · 05-17-2009, 04:35 PM

The frame is about 75% finished, I'd say. It's lacking the machining for the holdopen, the top area still needs to be milled out, holes for the safety lever need to be drilled. Back area of the frame, where it meets the receiver needs to be shaped.

It is a frame with a stock lug and the grip shape (although difficult to see) looks kinda classic.
There is also a company in Germany, making P08 copies that fire alarm pistol blanks. Could be one of those as well.

Frames and receivers were made from rough forgings and gradually milled, drilled and worked into shape. Some 180+ machine steps for the frame only

sheepherder · 05-17-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Frames and receivers were made from rough forgings and gradually milled, drilled and worked into shape. Some 180+ machine steps for the frame only

There is also this: That frame has been blued/parkerized/phosphated (can't tell from the pics)...You only do that to a finished part...

If there are machining operations left to do, then that may be some kind of engineering sample...I have two Colt auto frames that were sent to a local corporation [Carborundum] to have an experimental finishing operation done...they're in the white; but 100% machined...

sheepherder · 05-17-2009, 05:10 PM

BTW: It is steel, right??? Not aluminum or potmetal??? (Zinc alloy)

There are several very well made non-shooting copies of the Luger out there...and while they can't be made to shoot, they come pretty close to the actual form...

dougfw190 · 05-17-2009, 06:24 PM

It is steel. (a magnet sticks to it) It has a lighter cast (light brown) to the finish than appears on the pictures. None of the holes in the frame give the appearance of being drilled. There is a seam visible along the front and back straps and inside the magazine well. I purchased it at an estate (primarily firearms) auction about fifteen years ago. It was an odd piece amongst the other firearms there. Since it was the "odd duck" and not of interest to most folks who were there for a nice collection of American long guns, , I picked it up for $20. Unfortunately, no story or provenience with the piece. I bought it on a whim and with the fleeting thought of making (or having made) into a target pistol as I mentioned in the first post. It sat on a shelf due to work and kids. I'm a firearms instructor and a WWII nut. I've owned two lugers through the years (mismatched shooters) and know them to be great weapons when sorted out. Thanks very much for the comments. They help me me understand what I have and a little bit better idea as to how to proceed from here. (which kinda sounds like put it back on the shelf)

sheepherder · 05-17-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougfw190

There is a seam visible along the front and back straps and inside the magazine well.

Can you post a closeup pic of the seam??? I am familiar with forged & cast AR-15 [aluminum] receivers and their seams (or lack thereof); maybe the steel is similar...

A casting will not have perfectly straight thin sections (unless it has been machined); they warp when they cool...a forging will hold straight...

Vlim · 05-17-2009, 07:11 PM

Well, the old world forgings required a lot more machining and were mostly just solid blobs before work started. So that rules them out, I guess.

I wonder how the Mitchell/Aimco/Orimar lugers were made? Casted and then CNC finished?

This is a (very crappy, sorry, 40-year old photocopy) view of a postwar Parabellum frame in the middle of production. Looks a bit like the one shown here. Could be that the frame was in the white and was coated with a protective layer somewhere along the route.

If anyone has a copy of the september, 1969, edition of Gun Facts magazine, it's on page 25.

If it is a Mauser version, it's for a commemorative (stock lug) and post-1971 (grip shape).

dougfw190 · 05-17-2009, 11:37 PM

I will try tomorrow evening for a close-up. Work beckons in the A.M.

dougfw190 · 05-18-2009, 08:41 PM

Here is a photo of the seam. A little blurry, I apologize. It looks to me as if it has been ground off some already

05-17-2009, 12:40 AM	#1
dougfw190 User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger Frame I have a Luger frame that I purchased years ago at an auction. I'm guessing that some GI liberated the frame at the end of the war from a Luger factory, but there is no way to tell, One interesting part of the story is that the frame has not any machining done to it nor have any numbers or letters been stamped on it. It appears as though it is just the casting(?) and no further work has been done to it. I have always wanted a Luger for target shooting similar to the post war models made by Mauser (one is shown in John Walters' book. A friend has borrowed it or I would reference the page number and provide a little more detail). I have a couple of questions: Is the frame of value for what I want to do with it? In a very general sense, how much money would I be talking about to finish a project such as this? Who might be capable of (and interested in) a project like this? Thanks for any advice/suggestions.

05-17-2009, 01:04 AM	#2
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,528 Thanks: 1,334 Thanked 3,711 Times in 1,014 Posts	frame... Hi dougfw190... I like your forum name as I am a huge fw190 fan, especuially the ta152... We were pretty fortunate they were as pressed, as they were... As for the frame... we need pictures.... as to value, except for a conversation piece, an unfinished frame is pretty much just a real neat piece of Luger history... As it is nearly impossible to cost effectively complete, especially if only partially, or for that matter, even mostly finished??... Excellent P.08 frames are not very expensive, available, and waaayyyy cheaper then asking a good machinest to even clamp one in his mill vice !! But I personally, really like to see the different stages of manufacture, so it would have a bit more value to someone like me, a knothead that just can't seem to get enough punishment in daily life!! Put some pics on the forum, there are enough of us that like the devolopment history that you'll get a few opinions on value and potential.... best to you, til...lat'r...GT

05-17-2009, 02:48 PM	#9
dougfw190 User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the answers. Here are some pictures. I'm not very good with close-ups Attached Thumbnails

05-17-2009, 04:03 PM	#11
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,528 Thanks: 1,334 Thanked 3,711 Times in 1,014 Posts	neat frame Kinda neat just the way it is... If you ever want to sell it, let me know, I'd never finish it, but would really like to study it... ... BTW, I think Luger frames started out as a rough forging, receivers also..... as far as I know, all of them from early to late Mauser?? I'm sure, they could cast a 95% net finished frame today.. but it would REALLY cost'ya! best to all, til....lat'r....GT

05-17-2009, 07:11 PM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Well, the old world forgings required a lot more machining and were mostly just solid blobs before work started. So that rules them out, I guess. I wonder how the Mitchell/Aimco/Orimar lugers were made? Casted and then CNC finished? This is a (very crappy, sorry, 40-year old photocopy) view of a postwar Parabellum frame in the middle of production. Looks a bit like the one shown here. Could be that the frame was in the white and was coated with a protective layer somewhere along the route. If anyone has a copy of the september, 1969, edition of Gun Facts magazine, it's on page 25. If it is a Mauser version, it's for a commemorative (stock lug) and post-1971 (grip shape). Attached Images

05-17-2009, 08:53 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Building up a frame into a luger probably costs more than a shooter by the time you are done; that said it is easy to find a frame if you look around for a bit, heck I have 2 sitting around upstairs awaiting on being built up Ed

05-17-2009, 11:13 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Apart from that, if it is a liberated WW2 frame, it may have more value as that, than as anything converted into a finished product. My guess is that it is one of the leftover Mauser Parabellum frames, but hard to tell without photos.

05-17-2009, 12:04 PM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	A possible problem is: What if they were rejects? Structurally unsound, wrong steel composition, etc... ?

05-17-2009, 12:38 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Yes, I know Mauser rejected quite a number of small parts because of stress and weakness issues, especially sintered parts like the firing pins and the sear bars. I like those forgings though, they're a great piece of weapons development history.

05-17-2009, 03:10 PM	#10
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	That's unmachined??? That one is ripe for finishing... You sure none of those holes are drilled??? If that's a casting, it's pretty close to being finished...if it's a forging, it's like 95% finished... On a related note: Did the German mfg's machine from forgings, billets, or just plain steel slabs???

05-17-2009, 04:35 PM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	The frame is about 75% finished, I'd say. It's lacking the machining for the holdopen, the top area still needs to be milled out, holes for the safety lever need to be drilled. Back area of the frame, where it meets the receiver needs to be shaped. It is a frame with a stock lug and the grip shape (although difficult to see) looks kinda classic. There is also a company in Germany, making P08 copies that fire alarm pistol blanks. Could be one of those as well. Frames and receivers were made from rough forgings and gradually milled, drilled and worked into shape. Some 180+ machine steps for the frame only

05-17-2009, 05:10 PM	#15
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	BTW: It is steel, right??? Not aluminum or potmetal??? (Zinc alloy) There are several very well made non-shooting copies of the Luger out there...and while they can't be made to shoot, they come pretty close to the actual form...

05-17-2009, 06:24 PM	#16
dougfw190 User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It is steel. (a magnet sticks to it) It has a lighter cast (light brown) to the finish than appears on the pictures. None of the holes in the frame give the appearance of being drilled. There is a seam visible along the front and back straps and inside the magazine well. I purchased it at an estate (primarily firearms) auction about fifteen years ago. It was an odd piece amongst the other firearms there. Since it was the "odd duck" and not of interest to most folks who were there for a nice collection of American long guns, , I picked it up for $20. Unfortunately, no story or provenience with the piece. I bought it on a whim and with the fleeting thought of making (or having made) into a target pistol as I mentioned in the first post. It sat on a shelf due to work and kids. I'm a firearms instructor and a WWII nut. I've owned two lugers through the years (mismatched shooters) and know them to be great weapons when sorted out. Thanks very much for the comments. They help me me understand what I have and a little bit better idea as to how to proceed from here. (which kinda sounds like put it back on the shelf)

05-17-2009, 11:37 PM	#19
dougfw190 User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will try tomorrow evening for a close-up. Work beckons in the A.M.

05-18-2009, 08:41 PM	#20
dougfw190 User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here is a photo of the seam. A little blurry, I apologize. It looks to me as if it has been ground off some already