P08 1938 (Wooden grips)

heldsberg1 · 10-01-2008, 02:04 PM

I saw a nice military Luger made from the Mauser Werke Oberndorf (S/42). The pistol comes with a second magazin and a holster (on the picture) for 950 bucks. All parts have the same serial numbers 4149.

The pistol looks good, just the grips are a little bit strange to me, must be post war? What do you think about this pistol?

Sorry this are maybe stupid question, but it would be my first Luger.

Thanks for your help

heldsberg1 · 10-01-2008, 02:07 PM

More pictures

heldsberg1 · 10-01-2008, 02:07 PM

Holster

alanint · 10-01-2008, 02:20 PM

The grips look like they have been bleached with a strong solvent, which took all finish off the wood. Perhaps this was done in an attempt to clean them.

Edward Tinker · 10-01-2008, 03:06 PM

Welcome to the forum.

Yes, when I have cleaned grips, sometimes they get TOO clean and when they do not get the proper oil, they stay too light. I like boiled lindseed, although tung oil is good too, it just depends on the person and what they like to use.

Ed

George Anderson · 10-01-2008, 03:45 PM

First question is, are the grips numbered to the gun on the reverse? If so, they are probably original and darkening would be warrented.

John Sabato · 10-01-2008, 04:40 PM

There is some slight oil staining, but the grips look in very good shape to me... If this gun includes the holster, the price is a good one IMHO.

Mauser720 · 10-01-2008, 08:18 PM

heldsbert1 -

I notice what appears to be red paint in the lower detent of the safety lever.

By any chance, is there white paint in the upper detent?

Mauser720 - Ron

adowns · 10-02-2008, 05:24 PM

Ron...

What do you know about the painted dots? I also have a luger with red and white paint in the safety detents. Are the painted dots something a previous owner did or were they put on in a rebuilding process?

Alan

Vlim · 10-02-2008, 05:26 PM

Probably both,

I've seen the red dots on VoPo rebuilds and they have also been reported on Dutch lugers (which were refurbished about every 7 years).

Mauser720 · 10-02-2008, 05:51 PM

Alan and G. van Vlimmeren -

What little bit I know about these dots is as follows:

I have an all matching (except the magazine) 1941 Mauser code "42" that has the red dot in the lower safety detent and a white dot in the upper safety detent. It came with a holster that had been modified in Norway by placing a wire hanger on the back for use with the then standard issue U.S. web belt. (So this made me wonder if the gun had been in use in Norway.)

Both these dots appear to be quite old, having developed some patina, and are not recent additions to the gun. And they are well done, and not something you would have expected from a "do it yourself" type.

I have asked collectors whether these dots are original or at least "proper", and some say "yes" and others say "no." So I really do not know what to believe about them. Since there is some evidence that similar dots show up on other Lugers too, I do not think it is a good idea to remove them. They are interesting though, aren't they?

Mauser720 - Ron

Ron Wood · 10-02-2008, 06:46 PM

I think the red and white dots may also be found on the Persian contract Lugers

lugerholsterrepair · 10-02-2008, 07:50 PM

I don't believe the red or white dots were forseen by DWM or Mauser or would they be recommended due to the mechanics of their purpose.

These indents form a well for the ball on the underside of the safety lever, this well and ball, coupled with a slight spring pressure of the safety lever serve to hold the safety in place.

There are a couple of problems with placing an oil enamel in these wells. One, it dries and has a slick surface. This would cause the ball to find a slippery surface where one is not desired.
Two, the oil based enamel would occupy some small thousands of an inch, pushing the ball out of it's indent, again... counter to it's intended purpose of holding this important lever in place. These indents are quite shallow and will not allow for an oil enamel to work properly.
Three... any paint in either of these wells is redundant. When one looks at a Luger safety.. it is plainly marked GESICHERT which is painted in already!

I believe if you find either of these wells painted, it is not factory, is a bad idea and should be removed.

Ron says...I think the red and white dots may also be found on the Persian contract Lugers.
When Ron Wood speaks I listen. If this is indeed the case for Persian Lugers and Ron sounds doubtful? it's possible if it were requested in the contract but I would be interested to know if the indents were deepened to accomodate for the thickness of the oil enamel. Even if this prooves to be the case, how do we explain the redundancy issue?

Jerry Burney

Mauser720 · 10-03-2008, 10:00 PM

Well, since I only have this one example of enamel paint in the safety indentations, I am hesitant to form any conclusions.

It certainly does seem possible that such paint could be detrimental to the effectiveness of the safety.

Here is a picture of the sole example that I have, taken through a digital microscope at a magnification of 50 X. At this level of magnification, the paint appears more orange than red, but that could be due to the LED lights on the microscope too.

Especially interesting is that the ball on the underside of the safety lever does not appear to be touching the enamel paint. Notice around the rim of the indentation, at the bottom and on the left side, the metal on the rim is completely bare. It appears that the ball is larger in circumference than the diameter of the indentation. Thus, the ball does not actually reach down to the bottom of the indentation, and it does not touch the enamel paint in the bottom.

The safety seems to work just fine, with an audible "click" when going into either the safe and the fire position.

Interesting although I can't explain it either.

Mauser720 - Ron

Ron Wood · 10-04-2008, 01:44 AM

My recollection of the Persian Luger safety was only partially correct. Here is the safety area from a 4" Persian that I clipped from Bob Adams' web site. The red dot is not in the detent but below it.

cburd · 10-05-2008, 01:46 AM

Hello, my recently purchased Luger, marked 1936, with the byf/42 toggle, has the same grips, and also has the red paint in the detent. It also has the same waffenamt marks, two similar, but different eagles, with the number 63 under them. By the way, these folks on this forum are very patient, and helpful, as I had a lot of trouble getting mine to be a workable shooter, and now it is real sweet! (Thanks folks!) Hope this helps you in some way.....
Chris

cburd · 10-05-2008, 01:49 AM

By the way, that is the same price I paid for mine, and it was my first Luger, also. I don't know if they "saw us comming", or what, but that is a strange coincidence!
Chris

heldsberg1 · 10-05-2008, 09:58 AM

I checked the Luger again with the Technical Information from this site and I'm a little bit confused now.

The arsenal mark is S/42 but there is also 1938 stamped. The Waffenamt mark are two eagles with a number 23 or 63 i quess (like on the picture).

Is it a military Luger used from the Wehrmacht? What kind of stamp is the third eagle (red dots) on the picture, I couldn't find it on the technical informations?

Thanks for your help

cburd · 10-05-2008, 11:21 PM

Hello, my Luger has EXACTLY the same symbols, including the one that you have outlined. From what I understand, from the proof pages, page 4, #45, it indicates a Mauser early proof, "G" date and later. The third eagle is there also, as is yours, but different from the one shown in #45. As far as I can find, the closest is proof page 4, #59, second symbol, although mine, (and yours), are different from the one shown. My grips are exactly the same, although my toggle only says BYF. No numbers of any kind. So far, I havent seen the exact same third eagle anywhere to indicate what it means. Can you tell if there are any markings on the breech block? (The part the extractor is seated in)....Mine has a symbol similar to the one on the reciever, that we are trying to determine the meaning of. If you lived in S.C., I would swear we bought our Lugers from the same place! (Too many similarities!!). Anyway, any of you resident Luger experts have any ideas as to what we actually have? Also, anyone able to explain to me how to post pic.s on here, so I can show mine for comparison to this one, and to show all of you that I have been bugging what I also have? (Although, it would be like posting duplicates of heldsburg1's!!). Thanks, and if I find out the third eagles meaning, I will post it here.
Chris

MFC · 10-06-2008, 12:18 AM

Mark and Chris,
The stamps are Test Proofs. Right side of receiver, left side of breech block and right side of barrel. The test consisted of among other things, firing two test rounds that exceeded the standard powder charge by 20%. This info is from Jan Still's, Central Powers Pistols.
Mike C.

10-01-2008, 02:04 PM	#1
heldsberg1 New User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	P08 1938 (Wooden grips) I saw a nice military Luger made from the Mauser Werke Oberndorf (S/42). The pistol comes with a second magazin and a holster (on the picture) for 950 bucks. All parts have the same serial numbers 4149. The pistol looks good, just the grips are a little bit strange to me, must be post war? What do you think about this pistol? Sorry this are maybe stupid question, but it would be my first Luger. Thanks for your help Attached Thumbnails

10-01-2008, 02:07 PM	#2
heldsberg1 New User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More pictures Attached Thumbnails

10-01-2008, 02:07 PM	#3
heldsberg1 New User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Holster Attached Thumbnails

10-01-2008, 04:40 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	There is some slight oil staining, but the grips look in very good shape to me... If this gun includes the holster, the price is a good one IMHO. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-01-2008, 08:18 PM	#8
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	heldsbert1 - I notice what appears to be red paint in the lower detent of the safety lever. By any chance, is there white paint in the upper detent? Mauser720 - Ron __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

10-01-2008, 02:20 PM	#4
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	The grips look like they have been bleached with a strong solvent, which took all finish off the wood. Perhaps this was done in an attempt to clean them.

10-01-2008, 03:06 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Welcome to the forum. Yes, when I have cleaned grips, sometimes they get TOO clean and when they do not get the proper oil, they stay too light. I like boiled lindseed, although tung oil is good too, it just depends on the person and what they like to use. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-01-2008, 03:45 PM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	First question is, are the grips numbered to the gun on the reverse? If so, they are probably original and darkening would be warrented.

10-02-2008, 05:24 PM	#9
adowns User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 15 Thanks: 21 Thanked 18 Times in 7 Posts	Ron... What do you know about the painted dots? I also have a luger with red and white paint in the safety detents. Are the painted dots something a previous owner did or were they put on in a rebuilding process? Alan

10-02-2008, 05:26 PM	#10
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Probably both, I've seen the red dots on VoPo rebuilds and they have also been reported on Dutch lugers (which were refurbished about every 7 years).

10-02-2008, 05:51 PM	#11
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Alan and G. van Vlimmeren - What little bit I know about these dots is as follows: I have an all matching (except the magazine) 1941 Mauser code "42" that has the red dot in the lower safety detent and a white dot in the upper safety detent. It came with a holster that had been modified in Norway by placing a wire hanger on the back for use with the then standard issue U.S. web belt. (So this made me wonder if the gun had been in use in Norway.) Both these dots appear to be quite old, having developed some patina, and are not recent additions to the gun. And they are well done, and not something you would have expected from a "do it yourself" type. I have asked collectors whether these dots are original or at least "proper", and some say "yes" and others say "no." So I really do not know what to believe about them. Since there is some evidence that similar dots show up on other Lugers too, I do not think it is a good idea to remove them. They are interesting though, aren't they? Mauser720 - Ron __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

10-02-2008, 06:46 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	I think the red and white dots may also be found on the Persian contract Lugers __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-02-2008, 07:50 PM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	I don't believe the red or white dots were forseen by DWM or Mauser or would they be recommended due to the mechanics of their purpose. These indents form a well for the ball on the underside of the safety lever, this well and ball, coupled with a slight spring pressure of the safety lever serve to hold the safety in place. There are a couple of problems with placing an oil enamel in these wells. One, it dries and has a slick surface. This would cause the ball to find a slippery surface where one is not desired. Two, the oil based enamel would occupy some small thousands of an inch, pushing the ball out of it's indent, again... counter to it's intended purpose of holding this important lever in place. These indents are quite shallow and will not allow for an oil enamel to work properly. Three... any paint in either of these wells is redundant. When one looks at a Luger safety.. it is plainly marked GESICHERT which is painted in already! I believe if you find either of these wells painted, it is not factory, is a bad idea and should be removed. Ron says...I think the red and white dots may also be found on the Persian contract Lugers. When Ron Wood speaks I listen. If this is indeed the case for Persian Lugers and Ron sounds doubtful? it's possible if it were requested in the contract but I would be interested to know if the indents were deepened to accomodate for the thickness of the oil enamel. Even if this prooves to be the case, how do we explain the redundancy issue? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-03-2008, 10:00 PM	#14
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Well, since I only have this one example of enamel paint in the safety indentations, I am hesitant to form any conclusions. It certainly does seem possible that such paint could be detrimental to the effectiveness of the safety. Here is a picture of the sole example that I have, taken through a digital microscope at a magnification of 50 X. At this level of magnification, the paint appears more orange than red, but that could be due to the LED lights on the microscope too. Especially interesting is that the ball on the underside of the safety lever does not appear to be touching the enamel paint. Notice around the rim of the indentation, at the bottom and on the left side, the metal on the rim is completely bare. It appears that the ball is larger in circumference than the diameter of the indentation. Thus, the ball does not actually reach down to the bottom of the indentation, and it does not touch the enamel paint in the bottom. The safety seems to work just fine, with an audible "click" when going into either the safe and the fire position. Interesting although I can't explain it either. Mauser720 - Ron Attached Images

10-04-2008, 01:44 AM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	My recollection of the Persian Luger safety was only partially correct. Here is the safety area from a 4" Persian that I clipped from Bob Adams' web site. The red dot is not in the detent but below it. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-05-2008, 01:46 AM	#16
cburd User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: south carolina Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello, my recently purchased Luger, marked 1936, with the byf/42 toggle, has the same grips, and also has the red paint in the detent. It also has the same waffenamt marks, two similar, but different eagles, with the number 63 under them. By the way, these folks on this forum are very patient, and helpful, as I had a lot of trouble getting mine to be a workable shooter, and now it is real sweet! (Thanks folks!) Hope this helps you in some way..... Chris __________________ "Don't ask me, man, I just got here myself" _"The Goose", Mad Max

10-05-2008, 01:49 AM	#17
cburd User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: south carolina Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	By the way, that is the same price I paid for mine, and it was my first Luger, also. I don't know if they "saw us comming", or what, but that is a strange coincidence! Chris __________________ "Don't ask me, man, I just got here myself" _"The Goose", Mad Max

10-05-2008, 09:58 AM	#18
heldsberg1 New User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I checked the Luger again with the Technical Information from this site and I'm a little bit confused now. The arsenal mark is S/42 but there is also 1938 stamped. The Waffenamt mark are two eagles with a number 23 or 63 i quess (like on the picture). Is it a military Luger used from the Wehrmacht? What kind of stamp is the third eagle (red dots) on the picture, I couldn't find it on the technical informations? Thanks for your help Attached Thumbnails

10-05-2008, 11:21 PM	#19
cburd User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: south carolina Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello, my Luger has EXACTLY the same symbols, including the one that you have outlined. From what I understand, from the proof pages, page 4, #45, it indicates a Mauser early proof, "G" date and later. The third eagle is there also, as is yours, but different from the one shown in #45. As far as I can find, the closest is proof page 4, #59, second symbol, although mine, (and yours), are different from the one shown. My grips are exactly the same, although my toggle only says BYF. No numbers of any kind. So far, I havent seen the exact same third eagle anywhere to indicate what it means. Can you tell if there are any markings on the breech block? (The part the extractor is seated in)....Mine has a symbol similar to the one on the reciever, that we are trying to determine the meaning of. If you lived in S.C., I would swear we bought our Lugers from the same place! (Too many similarities!!). Anyway, any of you resident Luger experts have any ideas as to what we actually have? Also, anyone able to explain to me how to post pic.s on here, so I can show mine for comparison to this one, and to show all of you that I have been bugging what I also have? (Although, it would be like posting duplicates of heldsburg1's!!). Thanks, and if I find out the third eagles meaning, I will post it here. Chris __________________ "Don't ask me, man, I just got here myself" _"The Goose", Mad Max

10-06-2008, 12:18 AM	#20
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Mark and Chris, The stamps are Test Proofs. Right side of receiver, left side of breech block and right side of barrel. The test consisted of among other things, firing two test rounds that exceeded the standard powder charge by 20%. This info is from Jan Still's, Central Powers Pistols. Mike C. __________________ Mike C.